Folder lock quality

A

Adamantium

Joined
Oct 3, 1998
Messages
355
With all the new locks on folding knive today I'm starting to get confused about which ones to avoid and the ones that are nice ideas.

What I know so far is to avoid SAK style locks because I've bloodied my fingers more than once when it snaps closed on them. I've never met a bad liner lock but from Joe T.'s rants I'm sure that they are out there. Lockbacks are always good if you can avoid the ones with the notch in the tang thaat stops it from opening smoothly(A.K.A. cold steel voyagers) But other than that I'm pretty much losed on the other ones like rolling, axis etc. Could someone please fill me in on what I'm missing here?

Sincerely,
Adam
 
In my humble opinion linerlocks from quality makers are reliable enough for everyday chores. I've not once thought any of my Benchmades would fail and chop off my fingers.

For unquestionable lockups and smooth, consistent opening and closing, my Sebenza's frame lock (or integral lock) will fit the bill. Seems highly unlikely that lock is going to give.

Can't say much about lockbacks, and I don't know how many other interesting lock designs that are out there.

Guess it depends on your needs.
 
The rolling lock, axis lock, liner lock and sebenza(frame, mono) lock all work on the same beginning idea.

The pivot pin is one point, the stop pin (or thumb stud stop ala Microtech) create two of the three points to lock the blade in place. The liner lock and frame lack work by a portion of the side of the knife shifting over to block the tang from moving. The only difference between the frame and and liner locks is whether there is a handle slab over the liner or the liner/frame is alone.

The rolling lock and axis are related, the axis pinlock moves longitudinally in or out of a groove in the tang. The rolling lock pin stays in place, but rotates a flat spot to let the tang pass or not.

Hope that does the trick,

------------------
Marion David Poff fka Eye, one can msg me at mdpoff@hotmail.com

Patiently waiting for the Spyderco SpydeRench, Lum Chinese Chopper Folder, Rolling Lock, Benchmade M2 Axis, M2 Axis AFCK, M2 Pinnacle and the REKAT Escalator and Pat Crawford Design.

"The victorious Warrior wins first and then goes to war, while the defeated Warrior goes to war and then seeks to win" Sun-Tzu














 
To add onto David's explanation...

To defeat a rolling lock or axis lock, you need to shear a metal pin, or collapse the frame while trying. This is very very difficult to do, and these lockups are incredibly strong. I can tell you from experience that holding a rolling lock knife, it feels like a fixed blade, there is no flex anywhere. Both lock types should be difficult to unlock accidently. The springs that both locks use to couple to their unlocking levers used to be a concern, but any problems here seem to be solved.

The liner lock and Sebenza-style integral lock both work by blocking the back of the tang. Since the integral lock moves the entire handle side over, the entire tang is blocked by a massive amount of metal that is unlikely to slip off. It is very strong.

The liner lock moves the liner behind the tang, and the liner is usually significantly less wide than the tang itself. It is not as strong as the integral based on the amount of metal blocking the tang. Done right, this format *is* plenty strong for just about any use. But very few companies or custom makers do it right every time. Ironically, I'm in the midst of an email conversation with a guy whose Microtech closed up on him, causing many stitches. If the best production company can't do it right every time, that's cause for worry.

Most people end up using their tactical folders for opening envelopes and boxes. Those people won't find problems with their linerlocks, because they barely even use the lock; if that's you, have no fear of liner locks. But put some stress on the spine and it's a different story. I can often easily pop the locks on the knives of guys who claim liner locks have no safety problems. I've done this so many times that I believe now that they're just not looking hard enough (or don't know how to look)!

The lockback, by contrast, is a lock that's easy to do consistently well, and when done so is good and strong, about as strong as a liner lock. It usually doesn't open as smoothly as the above locks, but there are some rare exceptions. The main concern is placement of the unlocking tab; put in the wrong place, the palm can accidently spring it. Also, if too much pressure is placed on the blade, the tooth on the spring can pop out of the blade-cutout, and the knife will close. Probably not something most people will see in a strong lockback though.

Overall, it's no coincidence that many of us who own many lockbacks and liner locks are desperately looking for some relief, some lock type that we can trust a bit more. The integral lock has proven to be a better mousetrap, the rolling lock looks like it might be better still, and the Axis lock holds just as much promise.

Joe
jat@cup.hp.com

[This message has been edited by Joe Talmadge (edited 08 December 1998).]
 
In case anyone has not seen my post on the Reviews Forum, there is an excellent review of the Axis lock at <a href="http://www.equipped.com/axis.htm">Equipped to Survive</a>. The article includes cut-away views of the lock which make its operation very clear.

Cheers,
Clay
 
Clay: Thanks for the heads-up on the Equipped To Survive review. I didn't want an Axis so bad until I saw all the diagrams. I still don't like most of the knife much, but the lock looks awesome.

Joe: You made me second guess my testing of my liner locks. And rightly so! My Leopard Cub failed the spine whack test. Does anyone know if Benchmade will correct this problem under warranty? I am less worried about this one, since it is a small knife that doesn't see excessive hard use, but I would like it to be as solid as possible.

I know I always come across as hating liner locks, but that is not exactly the way it is. To me liner locks seem sufficient for "pocket scalpels" like the Leopard Cub and Mini-Spike (which will get another spine whack test tonight) but I have reservations about full-size, hard use knives. I have gone so far as to give away my AFCKs to purge myself of liner locks. A Pioneer took it's place.

Ironically, the best lock up I have on a liner-type lock, is my Spyderco Military, which only has a leaf lock. It took 3 of them before I got a good one and I will probably test it again tonight, but so far, it has been the best I have seen. I wish it had another lock type, but I love the blade geometry enough to look past it. Hopefully the new Spyderco Martial Rolling Lock will have a similar blade (flat ground, lotso belly)

My $0.001432 (after taxes)...





------------------
Clay Fleischer
cdfleischer@yahoo.com

"10,000 Lemmings Can't Be Wrong!"
 
Although it cannot be operated one-handed, I have always trusted the twist lock. It is only seen on the Opinal pocket knives and the Cold Steel Twistmasters. It is a piece of steel which is rotated around the pivot of the blade, interposing 1/4" to 1/2" of steel between you and stumpyhood.
Aaron
 
CD --

Yeah, I'm with you on the "pocket scalpel", I may be willing to forgive some liner lock slop in them. But if it's remotely being sold as a "tactical", or I am relying on it as a hard-use and defense knife, I expect it to hold up to anything, including hard torquing, progressive spine pressure, and spine impact. As you found out, many liner locks will fail at least one, and sometimes all 3!

My best production liner lock is my AFCK, I can't bust it loose no matter what. Of course, I *still* have cause to worry, because liner locks sometimes magically start failing, after they've passed the tests for months or years.

I also agree about your hopes for the Spyderco martial. The Military and Calypso Jr. are two of Spyderco's best designs. I wonder if they have to brains to figure out the points in common between the two knives
smile.gif


Joe
jat@cup.hp.com
 
Update:

My mini-spike failed the spine whack test. D'oh!

The Military held strong though. A really hard whack will knock the liner to the far side of the tang, making it difficult to unlock, but it didn't close up, and that's the important part. I have often thought of removing the blade from the Military and having a custom maker put it in a different style handle with a new lock. Hmmm....

Any thoughts?

Clay

PS If I may repeat myself -- does anyone know if Benchmade will fix/replace liner-lock knives that fail the standard A.T. Barr tests? Joe? James? Steve? TIA
smile.gif


------------------
Clay Fleischer
cdfleischer@yahoo.com

"10,000 Lemmings Can't Be Wrong!"
 
For small pocket scalpels, I usually end up with a rockerlock.

Like Joe, my AFCK locks up like a champ, luckily I got one that had been properly inspected by someone who knows what to look for.

Beyond that, I have two rolling locks and an integral lock.

The only thing I would bring to the table about liner locks is this: What about liners that are thicker, it seems to me I have seen Emerson customs with pretty thick liners, wouldn't those seem to lock up better, given the more mass behind the tang theory??

According to Bob Taylor of REKAT, the rolling lock is good to 2200 lbs. And the Axis info at Equipped To Survive says the Axis lock can withstand well over 200 lbs without damage. I don't know if the Axis has been tested to failure, would be cool to know though...

The only thing I don't like about the Opinel or twist lock or helix lock is that they don't auto engage.

------------------
Marion David Poff fka Eye, one can msg me at mdpoff@hotmail.com

Patiently waiting for the Spyderco SpydeRench, Lum Chinese Chopper Folder, Rolling Lock, Benchmade M2 Axis, M2 Axis AFCK, M2 Pinnacle and the REKAT Escalator and Pat Crawford Design.

"The victorious Warrior wins first and then goes to war, while the defeated Warrior goes to war and then seeks to win" Sun-Tzu














 
David,

My experience with really thick liner locks is not much different than with really thin ones. The thickness of the liner will affect how strong the lock is. But it does most emphatically *not* seem to affect whether or not the lock auto-disengages on you. I can detect any correlation between liner thickness and lock safety.

The thickness of the liner obviously isn't the whole story, I made a mistake by implying that it was. The tang ramp has a lot to do with it, I'm not sure about other factors, such as how long the leaf cut-out is.

Joe
jat@cup.hp.com
 
CD: The best way to find out if they will is the E-mail or call them and tell them your problem and ask if they will.

Their phone # is Phone- 503-655-6004
Toll free- 800-800-7427

And their e-mail address is info@benchmade.com

Sincerely,
Adam
 
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