Folder Lock: Safety device or something else entirely?

[Insipid Moniker]

But it doesn't make it the manufacturers fault either........

True, but that's starting to approach Occam's Razor territory. If the simplest possible answer is a manufacturing error, we should conditionally accept that as, at minimum, a strong possibility. Something many seem loathe to do.

 

[spketch]

The folding knife lock mechanism was never designed to be a failsafe against abuse, negligence or idiocy.
Personal responsibility for usage and ones safety should be acknowledged. Safe practice should be paramount and foremost in knife usage as well as in any life endeavors.

Fair enough, but a properly designed lock should be able to withstand a reasonable amount of pressure or a tap on the spine without failing.

 

[cncpro11]

Exactly my point.



Sorry you disagree.

All semantics and engineering aside....

Situational awareness, common sense and personal safety awareness are key ingredients to life. In everyday activities one must practice these in order to not hurt ones self or to hurt others. To not do so is considered "negligence" as defined by law.
It's too bad that these things are such a commodity nowadays that they are forgone in deference to blaming others and create a boon industry in the healthcare and legal system to the point of being burdensome.

Not that I disagree with everything you said, just the part about locks not being safety devices.
Perhaps we could agree that they can and do promote ignorance on the part of the user, and definitely gives them a false sense of "security"?

 

[cncpro11]

If I bang the spine of my knife off my forehead a dozen times in a row I am definitely acting like a negligent doofus and ignoring safety standards. That absolutely does not make it okay for a locking knife to fail while I do it.

Why not? You're using it in a manner which it wasn't designed for.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

Why not? You're using it in a manner which it wasn't designed for.

If that's the level of performance that you accept, that's your business. As for me, I demand a certain level of mechanical integrity from the tools I spend money on. All my folders MUST pass the forehead-whack test!

 

[cncpro11]

If that's the level of performance that you accept, that's your business. As for me, I demand a certain level of mechanical integrity from the tools I spend money on. All my folders MUST pass the forehead-whack test!

Oh dear, you're giving us Buckeyes a bad name! Lol

 

[zzyzzogeton]

Fair enough, but a properly designed lock should be able to withstand a reasonable amount of pressure or a tap on the spine without failing.

Depends on your definition of "reasonable".

My definition is "If the knife somehow rotates in my hand (due to inadequate grip, sweat, oil, honey, whatever substance) and 'typical cutting pressure' is suddenly applied to the spine and the knife DOES NOT CLOSE, then the blade lock has done its job".

An unreasonable amount of pressure would be "I gonna whale the tar out of this FOLDING knife" and the blade lock allows the knife to close.

I personally think whacking the spine of a folding knife to see if the blade lock will fail is less than a "full deck" action. I can make ANY folding knife blade locking mechanism fail. A simple application of cutting pressure on the spine while gripping the knife only by the sides is more than adequate to test the blade lock integrity. Any whacking is simply "destructive testing".

 

[Insipid Moniker]

Depends on your definition of "reasonable".

My definition is "If the knife somehow rotates in my hand (due to inadequate grip, sweat, oil, honey, whatever substance) and 'typical cutting pressure' is suddenly applied to the spine and the knife DOES NOT CLOSE, then the blade lock has done its job".

An unreasonable amount of pressure would be "I gonna whale the tar out of this FOLDING knife" and the blade lock allows the knife to close.

I personally think whacking the spine of a folding knife to see if the blade lock will fail is less than a "full deck" action. I can make ANY folding knife blade locking mechanism fail. A simple application of cutting pressure on the spine while gripping the knife only by the sides is more than adequate to test the blade lock integrity. Any whacking is simply "destructive testing".

I don't entirely disagree. The spine whacks you see in, say, Cold Steel videos on the Triad lock are well into the realm of abuse and, even given the tremendous strength and resilience of that lock, I would have trouble trusting a folder after I did something like that even if it passed with flying colors. That said, Spyderco reportedly tests all their locking folders with a firm tap on the spine to make sure the lock is patent and I hardly think their method constitutes abuse.

Part of the problem is that even the testing we have from most major companies is pretty inexact because it would be exceedingly expensive to do complete destruction testing on each model of knife that was released. My own, un-scientific, testing methodology is to see if a lock will hold through steady hand pressure on the spine and two or three firm taps on a forgiving surface like the rubber sole of a boot. If a lock cannot handle those then it is, at least in my mind, inadequate as there are so many knives that will easily pass those tests.

 

[spketch]

Depends on your definition of "reasonable".

My definition is "If the knife somehow rotates in my hand (due to inadequate grip, sweat, oil, honey, whatever substance) and 'typical cutting pressure' is suddenly applied to the spine and the knife DOES NOT CLOSE, then the blade lock has done its job".

An unreasonable amount of pressure would be "I gonna whale the tar out of this FOLDING knife" and the blade lock allows the knife to close.

I personally think whacking the spine of a folding knife to see if the blade lock will fail is less than a "full deck" action. I can make ANY folding knife blade locking mechanism fail. A simple application of cutting pressure on the spine while gripping the knife only by the sides is more than adequate to test the blade lock integrity. Any whacking is simply "destructive testing".

Those seem like fair terms for what is reasonable.
I agree that spine whacking is a ridiculous " test". I chose the word "tap" with good reason. I'm referring to a light tap, but how do you quantify the kind of force that should be used? I don't know so personally I don't even use a tap test. I use the method of carefully trying to force the blade closed that you mention. It's safe to assume though that if a knife passes that test then a tap on the spine wouldn't cause a lock failure.

 

[Cold Steel Knives]

Shock tests are absolutely abusive. Whether it's an over strike, a spine whack, throwing a folder or stabbing it into a table (the list goes on and on) but we do it for a reason.
We believe that it is just bad practice to make a razor sharp knife and then equip it with a weak lock.
I've seen a knife close on someone's fingers and it isn't pretty

Our tests are extreme and very abusive for any knife, but we are aiming to test for the unknown, the unexpected and the crazy extremes that a bad situation might throw out there.
In day to day life you may never encounter anything that puts such horrendous pressure on your folder. But there is a peace of mind that comes from knowing the knife will hold up if the worst happens
We make our videos as entertaining as we can, and sometimes things are a little crazy, but the majority of our tests are done with good reason - to keep you safe!

Some other tests are just for fun...but that's a whole different story

 

[stabman]

Of course it's a safety feature.
What level of safety feature I choose depends on the use and size of the knife.
I feel fine about liner and frame-locks on knives with blades up to about 4 inches.
AXIS and compression locks are stronger (and I have some), but liner and frame-locks are fine if made correctly...and not abused by some doofus before I get them.
Well made lock-backs are cool too. :thumbup:

For huge knives (5-7.5 inch blade) I like the Tri-Ad lock.
Less convenient for closing, but it won't close on my hand when using the knife for tasks the manufacturer says not to (Yes, I'm still going to use my XL Espada as a folding machete ).

I'm pretty much only buying new knives now though, due to the abundance of people who think daily spine whacking is a great idea.
Just my luck I'd buy a Tri-Ad lock equipped knife with a stress fracture from some dude trying to bash through a 2x4 with the dull part of the blade.

 

[Karda]

Not that I disagree with everything you said, just the part about locks not being safety devices.
Perhaps we could agree that they can and do promote ignorance on the part of the user, and definitely gives them a false sense of "security"?

Personally, I think the CS videos do far more to promote that than anything.

 

[Cold Steel Knives]

Our video strategy has always been very simple. To back up our brag.
We simply prove that our products work.
Safety is our primary concern and we do all of these extreme feats in order to test that safety
We never encourage anyone to attempt to duplicate them - in fact we always state DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME

 

[cncpro11]

Personally, I think the CS videos do far more to promote that than anything.

I know right?
I got the proof series in the mail and the first thing my little guy wanted was to go outside and redo those tests and I was nearly tempted to let him!

I think those vids are cool and all, but folks pretty much ignore those do not try this at home warnings.

ETA: not bashing Cold Steel at all, just making an observation. I just bought a Recon 1 and freaking love it.

 

[Karda]

Our video strategy has always been very simple. To back up our brag.
We simply prove that our products work.
Safety is our primary concern and we do all of these extreme feats in order to test that safety
We never encourage anyone to attempt to duplicate them - in fact we always state DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME

The ignorant do just what the moniker implies. They IGNORE your disclaimer.
I'm all for a good bit of fun, until it promotes controversy, improper usage and unrealistic expectation.

 

[elkins45]

OK, let's get this aside from the start: all folding knives are inherently more likely to fold that would an equivalent fixed bladed knives made from the same type and thickness of steel. That's not surprising, some idiot designed them to fold in half! And let us further stipulate that all locking mechanisms will fail if sufficiently stressed, and likely that failure point would be below the level of strength of the equivalent fixed blade. And finally let us agree that he-man ultra mega lock strength testing is mostly marketing and chest-beating because when used as intended the locking mechanism shouldn't be stressed at all, since you are supposed to cut stuff with the EDGE of the blade and not the spine.

Now, my question: if the lock on a folding knife doesn't fit into the category of a safety mechanism then what category does it fall under?

I agree with the philosophical point that the true safety mechanism is the user's awareness and practice, but the same is true of seat belts, air bags and tree stand safety harnesses. Seat belts and air bags don't prevent bad driving, they just (hopefully) lessen the negative consequences. Tree stand safety harnesses don't keep you from dozing off but they hopefully keep you from snapping your spine as a result. I still call all of them safety devices.

If a lock isn't a safety device then what is it?

 

[singularity35]

OK, let's get this aside from the start: all folding knives are inherently more likely to fold that would an equivalent fixed bladed knives made from the same type and thickness of steel. That's not surprising, some idiot designed them to fold in half! And let us further stipulate that all locking mechanisms will fail if sufficiently stressed, and likely that failure point would be below the level of strength of the equivalent fixed blade. And finally let us agree that he-man ultra mega lock strength testing is mostly marketing and chest-beating because when used as intended the locking mechanism shouldn't be stressed at all, since you are supposed to cut stuff with the EDGE of the blade and not the spine.

Now, my question: if the lock on a folding knife doesn't fit into the category of a safety mechanism then what category does it fall under?

I agree with the philosophical point that the true safety mechanism is the user's awareness and practice, but the same is true of seat belts, air bags and tree stand safety harnesses. Seat belts and air bags don't prevent bad driving, they just (hopefully) lessen the negative consequences. Tree stand safety harnesses don't keep you from dozing off but they hopefully keep you from snapping your spine as a result. I still call all of them safety devices.

If a lock isn't a safety device then what is it?

This was what I was asking, you just wrote it better.

Betcha you'll get posts with convoluted logic that will evade the issue and blame the user. As if what the user does makes a difference. A chair is a chair whether used to sit on or used to smash somebody over the head. The use doesn't change the inherent characteristic of the object.

 

[Sonnydaze]

Now, this is interesting reading...for three pages... No, thanks. I skipped after the first seven or eight posts. I'd rather slap myself in the face with a pancake than read any more of this.

 

[ToddM]

It's funny that we never hear anyone complain about their lock being too secure or doing too good of a job keeping the blade from collapsing. You don't hear anyone complain that their liner/frame lock etc. works too well, and withstand too much force before failing.

It's only when people bring up problems and inconsistencies with various locks doing their job, especially poor examples of liner/frame locks on expensive knives, or that the liner/frame lock are simply a inferior lock by today's standard that's only being used for the ease of manufacturing and refusal to design and/or pay for better lock designs, that people show up saying it's user error and that no one really needs a working lock unless they are abusing the knife or being negligent come out in droves.

 

[nopyo]

Well, to some foreign lawmakers, folder locks are murder-enhancing features that promote stabbing. So there's that perspective...