Folders used for survival.

Jeff :

If you would trust a SAK for a 'survival folder,' then why wouldn't you trust a liner lock of some type? BOTH of them have the potential for closing on your hand.
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First off liner locks after collapsing (liner loses contact) are much more insecure than a SAK or whatever that does not have a lock in the first place. To be specific, I could easily cause the Military's blade to close once the lock was disengaged by a slight twitch of my wrist. There is no way I could do this with my SAK blade. This is true in general for most lock types, once the lock is open the blade will close with almost no force compared to a regular SAK.

The other reason, the one that is of primary concern to me is that if it has a lock it should actually function as a lock. If it doesn't then remove it, I didn't buy it as a decoration. The fact is that there are functional locks out there that are stable and strong, so why buy a distinctly inferior lock. The common excuse "use a fixed blade" is just that, an excuse. I would be curious to see if the people saying that have used strong secure locks like Reeves Sebenza (or the Axis, or the Rolling Lock etc.) . All of these locks types are available on blades that cut well.

-Cliff
 
Cliff,

I have used strong locks in folders, and yes I do carry them a lot. However if I had to choose I would choose a fixed blade over a folder. A folder by its very nature, strong lock of no, is still two piece of independant steel with some type of mechanical lock to hold them rigid. Under a given set of circumstances any lock can fail, some like I have experienced with liners, much more easily, but still the possibility is there. Also any folder is only as good as the pivot pin used in its construction, som eof which are massive and not prome to failure, but over time two surfaces wearing upon each other can take a toll on pivots.

With a good quality full tang, the type of knife I generally prefer, or hidden tang that runs the length of the handle, fixed blade it is less prone to failure. In my opinion at least and from my experience. others may well disagree.

That said, I always carry at least one folder, and yes at times I carry only folders, and I do not feel insecure in my choices.
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Lee

LIfe is too important to be taken seriously. Oscar Wilde
 
Cliff, I'm not doubting the locks on the knives you mentioned but I am saying that I treat all folders as folders....most of the time
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Example: During a recent trip to the jungle, the indigs had brought some tin (not aluminum) cans of fish for food during the boat ride into Tapiche. They forgot a can opener so I opened the cans with the Military by drving the blade through with the palm of my hand. Both blade and lock held up well. I wouldn't have done this with my non-locking SAK from fear of closing on my hand. OK, I would have done this with a SAK IF something else was not available.

What I'm saying is the liner lock works fine for my uses, sure it's looser once the lock is released, but I will trust it more than a non-locking knife for applications like I mentioned above. I also understand that liner locks can be released from gripping, so when I use it in a place that requires *some* pressure on the lock, I take the precautions.

The liner locks I own have served me well during many hours of field use, but I don't whack on the spine and try to get them to fail or attempt to make them fail in anyway. I just use them, simple as that and if they fail from the way I use a blade, then I discard it as being useful to me. I use them as folders and treat them as folders.

I usually buy any knife because of more than one reason. I like the way the Military performs...even if it has a less-than-par lock, its other features and abilities still make it well worth its salt.

I also wear Vasque hiking boots, but the quick lace clips are sorry as hell and I curse them everytime I put them...but after I get them tied, they work just fine
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And I will use your excuse...if I wanted a fixed blade knife I would have bought one. - Jeff


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Randall's Adventure & Training
jeff@jungletraining.com

 
I question the SAK for survival. I remember getting cut once using the screwdriver on a screw in the field and the can opener/screwdriver folded over and sunk into my thumb. It seems to me that in a survival situation, where you are likely to be stressed already it would be wise to choose tools which fail safer. A little backwards pressure on the main blade could make for a nasty injury

Just my take

Ken
 
I always carry the following with me: a lockable folder, a SAK, and a multi-tool. Whenever I go to the woods I take all these, plus a "FIXED BLADE." I agree with those above who don't want to take the chance of a folder closing on your hand or breaking.

Incidently, Plainsman, the "Officer Model" SAK is not a model at all, but a category by Victorinox. All the plastic handle SAK with lengths of about 3 1/4 to 3 1/2 inch handle lengths have "Officer Suisse" stamped on the tang of the large blade. The officer category includes the likes of the Tinker, Fieldmaster, SwissChamp, Recruit, etc. This is in contrast to the SAK that give Victorinox their start, the "Soldiers" model (and the Pioneer and Electrician) which have the aluminum handles and is the actual knife issued to Swiss Army soldiers. So even though your knife has "Officer" stamped on the tang (as does my Fieldmaster) it also has a name based on it's configuration.

Probably more than you wanted to know but if you tell me what the options are on your knife, I can probably find it's current name in my catalog.

Thanks--Bruce Woodbury
 
BRUCE: Gee, thanks for the SAK explanation! It has been driving me NUTS ever since I got it. I have looked in the latest catalogs and it isn't listed with my options. It also has a CROSSBOW/SWITZERLAND decal instead of the usual cross.

Here's the options on mine:
Large blade
small blade
scissors
fishscaler
saw blade
large screwdriver/bottle opener
small screwdriver/can opener
phillips screwdriver/fingernail file
awl
toothpick
tweezer

Thanks for looking!



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Plainsman :)
primitiveguy@hotmail.com


 
Hey Jeff...

Ok enough about the locks,, what about that retired BM ??
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Eric...

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Eric E. Noeldechen
On/Scene Tactical
http://www.mnsi.net/~nbtnoel

 
Folders..... I vote for my Spyderco Native. It goes everywhere else with me, and I'll keep it in the woods too. The only thing I've ever hand a problem with, is that it's version of Spyderco's hole is harder to use with heavy gloves on, and in that kind of weather, I'll carry the easier opening Endura.

As for SAK's, I'll take Victorinox's new SwissTool. It replaced the gerber that was my companion for many years, till some dumba$$ scout walked off with it while I went for a piece of hosing for the latrine I was fixing in his camp... I'll rant and rave about the pro's and cons of it on some other topic, but it does lock. all of it's tools lock. Nice little idea.


Stryver
 
I own a Victorinox Trailmaster...it's one of the new black Zytel-handled SAK's and has a solid liner lock that locks both the knife blade and the large screwdriver/can opener. There is little chance of it unlocking during normal use, as it takes some effort to unlock it. It also has the usual backsprings. Has a wood saw, can opener/small screwdriver, awl, and Phillips.

I have some liner locks and several lockbacks, and I favor the lockbacks more, esp. from Spyderco, Buck, and Cold Steel. So long as you keep the notch clean and take care of it, the knife will hold up. The old lockback, when done right, is a proven design; some have carried one lockback for 30 years. No one has yet done so with a single Walker/linerlock.

With a liner lock, I only use it for simple pocketknife tasks...which I use most folders for anyway. But I almost always have a lockback and non-locking SAK on me too.
Jim
 
Lee, you will get no argument from me about carrying fixed blades over folders. The only reason that I carry folders at all is that they are better than no knife and there are places where I cannot carry a fixed blade. However I simply do not understand the "I treat all locks as if they were not there argument". Do you also drive your car as if it had no breaks and that the ball joint could drop out at any time? Of course not. You rely on the breaks to stop the car and the wheel to guide it.

While there are locks that become unstable under forces very easily and as well cannot take much direct strain there are some that do not. The Rolling Lock for example takes 1000 in.lbs of torque to fail it. If all locks were unstable and weak I can understand pretty much not trusting any of them. However when there are folders out there with locks that are very stable and very strong I see no reason to buy something that is not. The integral lock by Reeve (and others) is an example. When Spyderco examined it awhile back it surpassed their current highest standard (450 inc.lbs) and even when it did fail it just jammed, it would not close on the users hand.

There are some behaviors in the knife industry that are very odd when compared to other fields. The lock on folders being one of them. The fact that you can disengage a liner lock by tightening your grip strikes some people as being perfectly reasonable - it to me is an inexcusable failure and makes the blade not usable for general utility as it is a hazard. While it is quite possible that I would be able to protect myself from the blade by altering my grip and knowing the problem. I would never be able to lend it to someone, especially in an emergency.

As an example, one that stands out to me very strongly. Quite awhile ago we had our dog tied out in the back yard with some heavy mono line (cod jigging line), very thick a few mm. The dog was running around like a maniac chasing a frisbee. One of my brothers friends wandered along he was young, about 7 or 8 I think. The line caught him in knocked him over as the dog ran past. As he was getting up the dog circled back and the line was heading for his throat/face. I think that was as scared as I have ever been as I was seeing him take the brunt of that in my head and not liking the results at all. I got to the peg (one of those corkscrew deals) and pulled on the line while shouting at the dog. For some reason he decided to listen to me on that particular day and the danger was averted.

Now lets assume that I had instead relied on a liner lock that would collapse under pressure. Would I remember in the face of a decapitation to take the necessay steps to protect against the liner fail? I doubt it. And I know for a fact if I had pitched the knife to someone else they would not have. However what boggles me is why I would want to have to rely on this in the first place when I decent locking folder would not be bothered by this at all. The latter being the main point.

This is similar with arguments used in favor of weak fixed blades. You will see people complaining about individuals chopping, digging or prying with knives and commenting "I would never use my knife as an axe" or whatever. This ignores the fact that there are knives easily able to chop, dig pry and do whatever else you want to do with it.

Same with folders, ask Mission about the abilities of their MPF.

-Cliff

 
Hi Cliff,

I am a tad confused, if you are saying that I said I treat a lockback like the lock does ot exist, I never meant that at all. Since I use lockbacks, and carry them, partly because some places I cannot carry fixed blades, and simply in some cases they perform a job a fixed blade does not. What I did say was I carefully selct my lockbacks, such as the bolt action. And since they are mechanical they should be treated as such. By this I meant they should be inspected, maintenance performed , and when foudn to be defective, eithter fixed or replaced.

SOrry if I caused any confusion.

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Lee

LIfe is too important to be taken seriously. Oscar Wilde
 
Lee, sorry about the misdirection, I didn't mean you personally, I was just referring to the argument commonly used.

Marion, liner locks do not need to be unstable it is just easier to make them that way and since people are willing to put up with it why should the makers change. For reference, an article on how to make very stable liner locks :

http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum12/HTML/000255.html

It is written by Joe Talmadge (surprise), and I keep meaning to get one of the makers blades.

-Cliff
 
Cliff, I am with you about liner locks needing to made more stable and reliable.

I think the Spyderco liner locks are really good, but I think the scallops included to make access easy are a mistake.

But the public likes convenience more than performance.

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Marion David Poff aka Eye mdpoff@hotmail.com
Coeur D'Alene, ID
http://www.geocities.com/mdpoff

An interesting business oppurtunity... http://www.geocities.com/selouss

"We will either find a way, or make one." Hannibal, 210 B.C.
 
I keep reading posts about people who have to cut open cans with their knife blade. A can opener is one of my principal survival items (along with knife or knives, solitaire flashlight, lighter, bandana) that I ALWAYS carry. In my "bag o' crap" that goes everywhere I have a Victorinox huntsman and a P-38 (the c-rats opener, not the plane). On my belt is a Gerber multiplier. That's three can openers.
 
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