Folding Knives for Defense

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Sep 5, 2005
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I'm curious to find out if anyone's ever put a folding knife to the ultimate test: in a civilian fight or in defense. I've read a number of books by people like Mark "Animal" McYoung, but they clearly are made for armchair warriors (most of us, I don't think, spend our times in biker bars where a knife blade comes out of nowhere). But we do walk around in places where people might want trouble every now and again.

Most reviews are for people who use knives as tools or to open molded plastic containers or paint cans. Social uses are fortunately rare, but not unheard of.
 
Most folders are not suitable for defensive applications, except perhaps as a "last ditch" improvised weapon. Sometimes I chuckle when I see the vast array of "tactical folders" with their fearsome 3.75" tanto blades being offered for sale. . .

I carry a blade primarily for defense, with "utility" being secondary -- indeed, many of the knives in my collection have no utilitarian value whatsoever. Currently residing in the Commonwealth of Virginia, I'm permitted to carry any sort of knife, concealed, with the specific exception of a: "switchblade, Bowie knife, dagger, dirk . . . or any weapon of like kind." As the law is selectively interpreted down here, balisongs and medium sized sheath knives have been ruled "daggers", as per the Webster's definition of "a knife suitable for stabbing." Any knife, of any size or configuration, may be carried openly.

The Cold Steel 6" Ti-Lite (Zytel grip) is what I typically carry clipped to my front pocket when I carry a folder instead of my usual fixed blades. It is similar to the Italian "Wolfkiller stiletto" style of the 50's, and would do the job as efficiently as a Fairbairn-Sykes dagger. I have never used this particular knife, and hope that I never do.

When I lived in New York, fixed blades ("dangerous knives") are prohibited outside of hunting & fishing, so I carried a Vaquero Grande -- and trained with it frequently. I cannot stress enough that if one wishes to carry a knife for defense -- especially a folder -- one must train with specially constructed targets in order to familiarize oneself with: 1.) the amount of damage [or lack thereof] resulting from various techniques, and 2.) the surprising lack of range one has [particularly with an undersized blade].

As far as folders go, the Vaquero Grande is unexcelled as far as defensive (as opposed to "combat") applications go. Unlike the 6" Ti-Lite, this blade is not designed to stab, but rather to slash -- and with its 6", fully-serrated, recurved blade it slashes extremely well. I have cut through heavy motorcycle jackets with ease. Gripping it low on the handle gives one the approximate range of a mid-sized Bowie, and its heft allows one to chop or club with it as well.

It can be flicked open simply by the weight of the blade, making a loud CLACK when it locks into place -- and even though a knife generally should not be "brandished" as a threat, it is scary enough to possibly serve as an exception to the rule. Typically, an assailant can be "demotivated" after taking a few superficial slashes to the palms or upper torso (lower torso = possible disembowelment, upper extremities = possible artery/nerve damage -- both of which are typically unjustified in a saloon altercation). A slash across the forehead is especially effective, as it will bleed profusely, obscuring the assailant's vision, making him ineffective and demoralized.

Please note that one is typically not justified in deploying a knife (or any other weapon) against an unlawful and unprovoked attack UNLESS: 1.) the attacker is armed, 2.) there is more than one attacker [they usually come in pairs], or 3.) the attacker is significantly larger than you. If the intended victim is disabled, elderly, or female, the aforementioned "justifications" need not apply.

I recommend that individuals considering a possible defensive application for their folding knife obtain and read the books "Knives, Knife Fighting, and Related Hassles" by Marc MacYoung, and "Logic of Steel" by James LaFond. MacYoung discusses the legal (and "extra-legal") aftermath of a knifefight, as well as speaking out against the large number of "paramilitary" knifefighting books that have no civilian application -- one should never kill or cripple another unless one truly has no other choice, as there will be consequences. LaFond's book discusses knifefighting from a criminologist's or anthroplogist's perspective.

It's not nice to cut people -- even if they deserve it. I'd advise you to use your belt, a spring baton, or a can of Mace Pepper Gel instead! Belts are legal everywhere, can do serious damage, and have far more range than a knife. A well-made expandable spring baton is legal in many jurisdictions and will do about the same amount of damage as a sjambok or rubber hose. Pepper Gel has a range of over 20 feet and is suitable for indoor use (whereas most peppersprays will contaminate a room for hours). Why use a knife at all when much better options exist? (unless, of course, that's all you happen to have on you at the time).
 
There are much better tools for self defense than a knife. One is a good pair of running shoes and staying in the kind of shape that can get you out of situations. Another is a CCW permit if they are issued in your area.
 
Actually, in these types of posts, I do not think it is in debate that there are better tools/methods for self defense.

It usually boils down to what is a good knife, what are desireable traits in a knife, for self defense, should the undesireable sutuation occur.

I'm sure most people would rather have something along the lines of a 12ga. shotgun, .45 handgun, and a .308 rifle. But, we generally don't have them on us for various reasons.

So, we look at what we do have readily available.

Running is nice. But my days of sub 4 minute miles are over, and younger people have been out sprinting me for years. Also, why give up the improvised weapon of hard soled shoes?
 
orthogonal1 said:
Running is nice. But my days of sub 4 minute miles are over, and younger people have been out sprinting me for years. Also, why give up the improvised weapon of hard soled shoes?

Ha, good point. I tend to respond like this because I have the privilege of CCW in my state. If I didn't I'd probably think of my knife a little more as a defensive tool.

To answer the original posters question, I like Emerson's, Lone Wolf, Al Mar and Combat Elite's line of knives that could fit this mold. There are many Spydercos and Benchmades that are also great, I just don't have any personal experience with the more "tactical" BM's and I don't own any Spydercos.
 
Actually, you don't have to go where trouble is known to happen. You choose to.

You're much better off with a CCW permit and a pistol you can accurately fire and incessantly carry. Knives as weapons freak out a lot of people. Even folks comfortable with cocked and locked .45's.

Confederate,

Are you sure you've actually read Marc's books? The ones I've read involving knives and bad parts of town don't have much mention of biker bars. They also are quick to point out that Western society views knives as "thugs' weapons." Something to remember if you defend yourself in a part of town you know to be bad and use a weapon you know to be frowned on and end up on trial in hemisphere you know to have juries.
 
tyr_shadowblade said:
Please note that one is typically not justified in deploying a knife (or any other weapon) against an unlawful and unprovoked attack UNLESS: 1.) the attacker is armed, 2.) there is more than one attacker [they usually come in pairs], or 3.) the attacker is significantly larger than you. If the intended victim is disabled, elderly, or female, the aforementioned "justifications" need not apply.

Even if one is disabled, elderly, or female the above "justifications" need to apply, but will apply under lesser or less stringent circumstances. The disparity of force between the attacker and the victim will be much easier to see if one is disabled, elderly, or female.
 
tyr_shadowblade you made some very good points.

However, not that you seem against carrying, I still carry a folder daily. This is despite my military and over 20 years of martial arts training and teaching (if you include my boxing). I think that the availability of a knife only multiplies ones options with which to respond to an aggressor. It can be used to load your fist, pressure point manipulation, and yes possibly as a cutting weapon... That said, have I used a knife in an altercation? No... Have I been assaulted with a knife? Yes... My point? Just because one carries a knife (which is one of the oldest tools of man that I am aware of) does not mean that he/she wishes to cause grievous harm to others or will not have the mental capacity to determine whether lethal force is warranted and necessary.

Unfortunately there are many in the general public that see a knife and assume the worst, and even more unfortunate is that the uninformed masses, looking for a new cause, jump on the latest thing to ban be it guns, knives (auto and otherwise) and numchucks for examples.
 
Thanks for all the replies. Yes, I've read MacYoung and enjoy reading his stuff. But he's worlds away from the environment I'm in. He frequently talks about bars and people approaching with hidden knives. He also served as a bouncer in various places and so, while I don't discount his valuabe advice, I don't find myself in the types of situations he might find himself in.

Regarding the Varquaro Grande, I, too, am impressed with this knife. I'm not sure I understand why a person wouldn't be able to use it if attacked without provocation (because, let's face it, some people can kill others with their bare hands, no problem), however, I think expanding batons and belts (especially against dogs) is the best bet.

Confed
 
The best weapon you've got is your brain, along with a healthy dose of situational awareness.

Nothing wrong with carrying a folder in the remote event it's needed, as a last resort. Most probably for something other than self defense (rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6). Although in many states they're illegal to carry on or about your person in public.

Knives and guns aren't the best way to solve political or social problems in public, unless you like getting cut, shot, or 20 years in prison.

After all, if you study altercations of this type, you often see that they are most often easily avoided by both parties.

Not easy to explain to a jury why you felt you had to cut some guy up out in public with your fancy folder. Unless it's obvious you had no choice and were on the verge of death, serious bodily harm.

You also take a great risk of a concealed carry holder, or off duty cop in the crowd misunderstanding the whole situation.

That's why I like to say it's best to know troubles coming so you can avoid it. If you can't avoid it or leave, make 'em pursue you if possible. Then ambush in a neutral location. Being pursued, while attempting to avoid such altercations allows one the element of surprise as well as provides one with the alibi they were attempting to avoid trouble.

Defend your property at all costs.

Don't take the weaker sex to places where there is even the remote chance of running into such unsavory types of clientele. They are often a severe liability in such situations.

And go rent the movie 'Roadhouse'. It always pays to be smarter than the enemy.

signed,

former Marine, long haul truck driver
 
tyr_shadowblade said:
Most folders are not suitable for defensive applications, except perhaps as a "last ditch" improvised weapon. Sometimes I chuckle when I see the vast array of "tactical folders" with their fearsome 3.75" tanto blades being offered for sale. . .

I carry a blade primarily for defense, with "utility" being secondary -- indeed, many of the knives in my collection have no utilitarian value whatsoever. Currently residing in the Commonwealth of Virginia, I'm permitted to carry any sort of knife, concealed, with the specific exception of a: "switchblade, Bowie knife, dagger, dirk . . . or any weapon of like kind." As the law is selectively interpreted down here, balisongs and medium sized sheath knives have been ruled "daggers", as per the Webster's definition of "a knife suitable for stabbing." Any knife, of any size or configuration, may be carried openly.

The Cold Steel 6" Ti-Lite (Zytel grip) is what I typically carry clipped to my front pocket when I carry a folder instead of my usual fixed blades. It is similar to the Italian "Wolfkiller stiletto" style of the 50's, and would do the job as efficiently as a Fairbairn-Sykes dagger. I have never used this particular knife, and hope that I never do.

When I lived in New York, fixed blades ("dangerous knives") are prohibited outside of hunting & fishing, so I carried a Vaquero Grande -- and trained with it frequently. I cannot stress enough that if one wishes to carry a knife for defense -- especially a folder -- one must train with specially constructed targets in order to familiarize oneself with: 1.) the amount of damage [or lack thereof] resulting from various techniques, and 2.) the surprising lack of range one has [particularly with an undersized blade].

As far as folders go, the Vaquero Grande is unexcelled as far as defensive (as opposed to "combat") applications go. Unlike the 6" Ti-Lite, this blade is not designed to stab, but rather to slash -- and with its 6", fully-serrated, recurved blade it slashes extremely well. I have cut through heavy motorcycle jackets with ease. Gripping it low on the handle gives one the approximate range of a mid-sized Bowie, and its heft allows one to chop or club with it as well.

It can be flicked open simply by the weight of the blade, making a loud CLACK when it locks into place -- and even though a knife generally should not be "brandished" as a threat, it is scary enough to possibly serve as an exception to the rule. Typically, an assailant can be "demotivated" after taking a few superficial slashes to the palms or upper torso (lower torso = possible disembowelment, upper extremities = possible artery/nerve damage -- both of which are typically unjustified in a saloon altercation). A slash across the forehead is especially effective, as it will bleed profusely, obscuring the assailant's vision, making him ineffective and demoralized.

Please note that one is typically not justified in deploying a knife (or any other weapon) against an unlawful and unprovoked attack UNLESS: 1.) the attacker is armed, 2.) there is more than one attacker [they usually come in pairs], or 3.) the attacker is significantly larger than you. If the intended victim is disabled, elderly, or female, the aforementioned "justifications" need not apply.

I recommend that individuals considering a possible defensive application for their folding knife obtain and read the books "Knives, Knife Fighting, and Related Hassles" by Marc MacYoung, and "Logic of Steel" by James LaFond. MacYoung discusses the legal (and "extra-legal") aftermath of a knifefight, as well as speaking out against the large number of "paramilitary" knifefighting books that have no civilian application -- one should never kill or cripple another unless one truly has no other choice, as there will be consequences. LaFond's book discusses knifefighting from a criminologist's or anthroplogist's perspective.

It's not nice to cut people -- even if they deserve it. I'd advise you to use your belt, a spring baton, or a can of Mace Pepper Gel instead! Belts are legal everywhere, can do serious damage, and have far more range than a knife. A well-made expandable spring baton is legal in many jurisdictions and will do about the same amount of damage as a sjambok or rubber hose. Pepper Gel has a range of over 20 feet and is suitable for indoor use (whereas most peppersprays will contaminate a room for hours). Why use a knife at all when much better options exist? (unless, of course, that's all you happen to have on you at the time).


Hi, I have a question about using your belt as a self defense weapon. Are you suppose to just whip them with your belt? or fold your belt in half and use it like a slapjack? Sorry for the newb question, I just never really considered using my belt as a self defense tool before.
 
Not using a belt...but I think it's LaFond who has a whole section on using your jacket as a shield. You can wrap yourself up in it and use it to defend yourself.

LaFond says this has saved his bacon more than once, even against a dog.

I think GaryPham makes very good points. The Logic of Steel is a must-read if you are interested in defense with a knife. He shows that 1) experience and 2) aggression are the primary determinants of who will "win" a knife fight. The book is a succession of largely what I would delicately term "low lifes" but the points (haha) are good because they are backed up with case studies.
 
Sorry, there are times leaving home with just a brain can get one killed. The one time I needed a weapon, I really needed it and would most likely have ended up with a toe tag without it. Most people don't want to get shot or cut and juries are something I worry about later. Many cops will tell you it's what someone says after they waive their rights to an attorney that gets them. Bottom line: Stay out of trouble, keep your nose clean, but always have a means of defense or, better, a clear avenue to scoot.

I think everyone should have a good folder for emergency situations; something that will cut them or someone else out of a seatbelt and help in first aid. Knives are among the most basic tools of man and society, being what it is, folders are the only way to go. Still, it takes a certain mindset to use a knife in a defensive situation. Even someone like MacYoung will run rather than fight, but I doubt you'll find him without a knife.


Confed
 
Maybe try another forum? You'll find that most reviews here center around realistic, common jobs because that is prevailing view for the usefulness of knives here. 95% of the people I know, who really rely on a self defense weapon will choose one of the normal self-defense tools- guns, various sprays, dogs, and a sensical mind. I've been on these forums for many years, there has never been a thread accounting a personal knife-fighting experience that I am aware of.
 
With all the tactical folders being reviewed, it's not practical to think that none of them will be used for anything unpleasant. And defense, like it or not, is a legitimate topic for a knife forum. Why all the quick opening mechanisms? To open a can of paint? Also, there are plenty of combat people who log into this forum to find a dependable knife they can use and go into harm's way with. Police officers, too.

So until knife companies replace their super tacticals with "bucket openers," people will use knives for a whole range of uses, including camping, hunting, rescue, defense and yes, opening paint cans. It would be a shame to let someone lose their fingers because a knife wasn't dependable. Knife fighting was not what I was asking about, nor am I interested in the topic. But I am interested in defense and emergency use.

Confed
 
Eric 425 made a very good point. This is my first experience with these forums, and even though I thought Confederate's question a bit odd, it did not occur to me that it might be deemed "taboo."

A certain minority of folding knives seem to be designed -- and marketed -- primarilly as non-utilitarian weapons. The knife design one should choose as a weapon depends upon one's particular temperament and fighting style (I've found that "hawkbill" style serrated blades are a good choice for the untrained civilian). "Self-defense" is NOT synonymous with "killing" -- all that is required in a LEGITIMATE defensive scenario is that one detach from and successfully repel an unlawful aggressor who has initiated a physical attack, the nature of which puts one in reasonable fear of either death or serious injury. This does not apply to shoving matches and name-calling! Wielding a blade in order to "save face" is the result of the pathological form of immaturity known as "machismo." Machismo is a false thing, the mark of a weak-minded coward who would gladly harm or kill another in response to any percieved slight. One should only draw a weapon when one has legal justification for the implementation of lethal force -- but then one must restrain oneself, using the minimal amount of force necessary to stop the attack and escape safely.

I have deployed a knife as a weapon on number of occasions. In nearly all of these occasions, no-one got cut, and the aggressor never even knew that I was holding an open blade out of his line of sight, ready to move instantly, if need be. My demeanor and tone was enough to let them know that they were in for some serious sh*t if they continued, so they wisely elected to disengage and walk off -- usually with some insult about how I wasn't "man enough" to fight them (it is best not to respond to such insults -- thereby allowing them to "save face" in front of their friends, so they can justify their retreat . . . if you foolishly insist upon "having the last word", you are, in effect, forcing them to turn around and engage you once again!).

On the very few occasions that someone got hurt, I was usually partially to blame for the situation getting out of hand. Either I was hanging out in a place that I knew to be very dangerous, or I was hanging out with people who I knew to be engaged in criminal activity, or I just couldn't keep my mouth shut when it probably would've been smart to do so. In ALL of these occasions: 1.) I had legal justification to use lethal force, 2.) I got hurt rather badly, 3.) Nobody died or was critically injured, and 4.) The "statute of limitations" for "assault with a deadly weapon" has long expired.

Perhaps Confederate's question was inappropriate for this forum, but I'm not the right person to judge. I'm just glad that no-one stupidly bragged about perpetrating an act for which the statute of limitations does not apply! If one admits to participation in a potentially unlawful activity -- on a computer forum -- one's comments not only could potentially be traced back to their originating computer terminal, but said comments could also reflect poorly on everyone else using the forum. The sheeple and the liberals already look upon those who carry knives as bloodthirsty savages -- why should we reinforce this delusion?
 
Salutations!

You know, I get asked that question a lot. Many of my students ask that the same way a kid asks his father that just came out of the war if he "killed anyone". No, thanks God, I have not had to cut anyone nor have I ever had to shoot anyone... yet. I've been cut 3 times by felons while on the job, on the flip side. Do I train with my hands and weapons? Yes. Why? For a moment that we all hope never comes, but may. Yes, I lost count of how many time have I been holding my knife/gun in the ready, but, fortunately, put it away after succesfully de-escalating the situation. I agree with shadow, we already got enough bad publicity to make known if we had to cut up another soul. Believe me, not too many people can handle it, there is a lot of blood and it hurts like a mother.

Yours in the Spirit of the Warrior-Scholar,

C. Roman, Head Instructor, American Kenpo
 
There were some other people asking such question as "have you ever kill or cut a man?" and got shot down on this forum.

I think Confederate question was framed in a different context and offered a good framework for us to discuss this sensitive issue.

I do enjoy all the opinions and comments here.
Thanks!
 
IntheWoods said:
Don't take the weaker sex to places where there is even the remote chance of running into such unsavory types of clientele. They are often a severe liability in such situations.
I hope you're being sarcastic. Don't you think there could be women on this forum? Women don't like to be considered a liability.
 
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