Followup: What is a custom knife

[BePrepared]

I have been thinking about it, and something occurred to me

we usually think that "hand made" and "full custom" are very closely linked, but if a specific maker has machinery in his shop such as CNC machines, and other automation, but does everything himself, personally working on every item one at a time, that doesn't seem to me to move it out of the custom category to me

Does anyone else have an opinion?

I guess i just see those as additional tools, used by the maker to produce a custom.

 

[Samael]

Dude, there are literally hundreds of pages here on this issue. Use the search function.

 

[cziv]

I have been thinking about it, and something occurred to me

we usually think that "hand made" and "full custom" are very closely linked, but if a specific maker has machinery in his shop such as CNC machines, and other automation, but does everything himself, personally working on every item one at a time, that doesn't seem to me to move it out of the custom category to me

Does anyone else have an opinion?

I guess i just see those as additional tools, used by the maker to produce a custom.

I would tend to agree, as long as the custom maker is running any of the machinery that's used in the production of his offerings/creations.

 

[betzner]

I would tend to agree, as long as the custom maker is running any of the machinery that's used in the production of his offerings/creations.

Yes, but what if someone else besides the maker turns the machine on????

Sorry for the sarcasm, but this one has been worked to death.

 

[cziv]

Yes, but what if someone else besides the maker turns the machine on????

Sorry for the sarcasm, but this one has been worked to death.

Sorry, after posting I noticed what forum this was posted under. I'm sure makers (some) have employees that run some of the equipment and are part of the process in the construction of a custom, hand assembled and fitted knife.

That is all

 

[SharpByCoop]

We address this topic regularly. Not such a bad thing.

It's a completely Black and White issue. (Meaning: black and white mixed, comes up = GREY!)

Here's the synopsis I like:

• Custom is a generic term, as is Handmade. Both have dictionary definitions which defy AND support our usage.
• Unless you are smelting ore, just about all the materials can/have been processed by other parties: Steel, screws, pivots, handle materials, etc.
• A CNC machine is a valid tool, as is a file. Both requires skills to operate, while CNC requires a higher LEVEL of skill.
• No machine can spit out a completed knife. It can, however, spit out better components which may make for MANY completed knives.
• Helpers and assistants are quite OK. If your wife answers the phone and mails the parcel, then you have an assistant. The assistant allows the maker to take care of more important work.
• If you disclose EXACTLY how your shop produces your knives, and you are forthright with your production methods, you don't need to fit any other model.
• The customers will decide with their wallet whether or not the Handmade or Custom description fits their model.

For ME: That's about it in a nutshell.

Coop

 

[sparrow75]

[*]A CNC machine is a valid tool, as is a file. Both requires skills to operate, while CNC requires a higher LEVEL of skill

I think that this is not always the case. While machines are important and desirable in knife making, some things just have to be made with simpler tools and require high skill and dedication

 

[Kevin Jones]

I have been thinking about it, and something occurred to me

we usually think that "hand made" and "full custom" are very closely linked, but if a specific maker has machinery in his shop such as CNC machines, and other automation, but does everything himself, personally working on every item one at a time, that doesn't seem to me to move it out of the custom category to me

Does anyone else have an opinion?

I guess i just see those as additional tools, used by the maker to produce a custom.

Curious as to why you didn't just bring the thread back up, on the same subject, you created a few weeks ago as opposed to creating this new thread?

[*]A CNC machine is a valid tool, as is a file. Both requires skills to operate, while CNC requires a higher LEVEL of skill.
Coop

Perhaps CNC operation requires more skill of a technical nature as opposed to the artistic, creative and mechanical skills that many of us appreciate
in the creation of traditionally made "custom or handmade" knives.

 

[brownshoe]

IMHO, the key concept is what SharpByCoop said:
- If you disclose EXACTLY how your shop produces your knives, and you are forthright with your production methods, you don't need to fit any other model.

How a knifemaker makes their knives is their business and what it's called is subject to interpretation. Many knifemakers have various parts of the process done by others, a few (generally found at gun shows and state fairs) even to the point of making kits and selling them as customs. Many buyers want a "custom" that has a significant amount of CNC work, it lowers the price and assures consistent quality.

 

[GigOne]

How a knifemaker makes their knives is their business and what it's called is subject to interpretation. Many knifemakers have various parts of the process done by others, a few (generally found at gun shows and state fairs) even to the point of making kits and selling them as customs. Many buyers want a "custom" that has a significant amount of CNC work, it lowers the price and assures consistent quality.

Interpretation by the "maker" alone? While you may believe "how a knifemaker makes their knives is their business," it's also up to the people purchasing the knives. While a "maker" may think it's fine and solely "his business" to outsource the entire manufacturing and assembly of his knives by a company in China and offering his wares to consumers as "customs" and at "custom" prices, it is without a doubt the business of others. . .specifically the consumers.

Many buyers want a "custom" that has a significant amount of CNC work, it lowers the price and assures consistent quality.

I'd love to see the data you're basing your information on - "Many buyers want."

While CNC work should "lower price(s)" and "assure consistent quality," it doesn't always happen. There are many variables that go into the equation (i.e., experience of the operator, software used, quality of the product being CNC'd, and expendable items involved in the process.).

 

[sparrow75]

In my previous post i went some OT.. didn't meant to jump in to disagreement about different levels of skills required for certain jobs to be done, CNC machined knifes IMO can be classified as customs and, with some stretch of terms as handmade, as long as their are small quantities and room for different mods ( handle material, left hand lock etc. )
As for the source of parts, as long as the quality of the product is satisfying, it should not be big of a deal

 

[brownshoe]

Per "I'd love to see the data you're basing your information on - "Many buyers want."

I don't know where you get your information, but the market is quite strong, for both new and secondary sales for "mid-tech" and custom knives, with a significant amount of CNC work. There have been several articles in the last few years in the press as well, both on the use of "out-sourced" services and specifically on CNC in the "small shop". New knives based upon a significant amount of out-sourced work have been introduced on this forum and the forumites pipe up indicating there is demand for them.

You may be misunderstanding me, I think a maker can make a knife anyway they want, they just need to be open and forthright about the process. If someone is selling a kit knife...call it one. If someone is selling a knife made with hand tools...explain it to the buyer. If you outsource your heat treat...don't call the knife "sole source" turn it into a positive and tell the customer about the great computerized oven. If an assistant does part of the work and makes the sheath...give credit to your help.

 

[unit]

Per "I'd love to see the data you're basing your information on - "Many buyers want."

I don't know where you get your information, but the market is quite strong, for both new and secondary sales for "mid-tech" and custom knives, with a significant amount of CNC work. There have been several articles in the last few years in the press as well, both on the use of "out-sourced" services and specifically on CNC in the "small shop". New knives based upon a significant amount of out-sourced work have been introduced on this forum and the forumites pipe up indicating there is demand for them.

You may be misunderstanding me, I think a maker can make a knife anyway they want, they just need to be open and forthright about the process. If someone is selling a kit knife...call it one. If someone is selling a knife made with hand tools...explain it to the buyer. If you outsource your heat treat...don't call the knife "sole source" turn it into a positive and tell the customer about the great computerized oven. If an assistant does part of the work and makes the sheath...give credit to your help.

No offense, but the request was for your data source to support that statement. In short, some people do not know where you get your information...and thus are asking the question.

 

[SharpByCoop]

brownshoe's opinions aren't filled with data.... Neither are mine. But they have large nuggets of truth.

Todd Begg, RJ Martin, Rick Hinderer and probably many more than I am aware of, have brisk sales with LOTS of CNC. They make no bones about it.

His other comment: "how a knifemaker makes their knives is their business", I read within his context as "how a knifemaker DECIDES to make their knives is their business," which then leads back to Gig's (and mine and BS's) strong point of the buyer being made aware. Fully. Otherwise, Houston, we have a problem.

That said, AG Russell appears to have little problem selling his outsourced (from China, no less) knives. He let's us know what was done, who did it, why he made the decision to use these craftsman, and if you want one vote with your wallet. If not, support another vendor who uses US components or builds. (I know they are not Handmade/Custom, but it's an analogy worth noting.)

Possible knife which the maker would be able to call Custom/Handmade:

• Blade steel from damascus maker #1
• Bolster guard steel from damascus maker #2
• Handle material from stabilized source vendor
• Screws, other hardware from vendor
• Blade profile(s) blanks cut via vendor
• Shop assistant helping with minor jobs
• Engraving by artist #1
• Scrimshaw by artist #2
• Sheath by sheathmaker
• Presentation box by woodworker #1.

Yikes! What a busy piece. Probably NOT for me.

This interpretation swings WAYYYY to the extreme, which only shows how far the interpretation can go.

Another cup of coffee, please.

Coop

 

[Samael]

It's a thorny issue, and one that will never be resolved to everyone's satisfaction. By your definition above, Coop, a Randall is a custom knife, and I don't think very many people would go there.

For myself, I don't worry about it much. That's because I do try to educate myself and be knowledgeable about how and where my knives are made. Other people simply don't care, and that's OK too. It's their money. They can spend it however they choose.

 

[SharpByCoop]

^^ Great points. And, I'm with you. No, I'm not in support of the above example, just showing how far it might go.

Coop

 

[betzner]

I think Potter Stewart (Supreme Court Justice) sums up my opinion on this thread's subject in his famous statement in a 1964 Court opinion on obscenity when he stated that "hard-core pornography" was hard to define, but that "I know it when I see it".

 

[cziv]

^^ Great points. And, I'm with you. No, I'm not in support of the above example, just showing how far it might go.

Coop

Glad you added this post, as I thought you were serious and certainly wouldn't want to see a list like that under a knife I was looking at. Pictures of knife then Specs + that list (you created for example, would look pretty silly).

betzner - right on with your post :thumbup:

 

[Lorien]

I think Potter Stewart (Supreme Court Justice) sums up my opinion on this thread's subject in his famous statement in a 1964 Court opinion on obscenity when he stated that "hard-core pornography" was hard to define, but that "I know it when I see it".

this

 

[BePrepared]

looks like this topic is still quite open to debate. Glad to know the thread wasn't completely pointless