For CA residents, Sikhs to be allowed FB conceal carry

drewg13

drewg13

Joined
Jul 8, 2008
Messages
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For the CA residents, seems like a violation of equal protection to me. To the CA state legislature --> :jerkit:

California House passes ‘kirpan’ bill
Published on Wednesday, September 2, 2009 by Azaad

Sacramento, California: In a landmark legislation, the California State Legislature has unanimously passed a bill to train law enforcement personnel about Sikhs and the religious significance of ‘kirpans’. The legislation (AB 504) was unanimously passed by the California State Legislature. The bill moves to Governor Schwarzenegger, to sign it into law.

“AB 504 is an important bill that recognises the state’s responsibility to protect religious freedoms, while ensuring public safety,” said Assembly member Warren Furutani, who introduced the bill in the state legislature this year.“The Sikh community should not live in fear of arrest by law enforcement for carrying the kirpan,” he added. kirpan

The bill defines a kirpan as a blade that resembles a sword and is required for the practice of the Sikh faith.

While several police and sheriff’s departments have recognised the need for this type of training and have been conducting it on an ad hoc basis, the bill would standardise the process statewide, the legislation said.

The training would specifically advise officers “how to recognise and interact with persons carrying a kirpan.” The Sikh Coalition, a Sikh advocacy group, hailed the passage of the bill as a historic occasion.

“Should it become a law, this would be the first law pertaining to kirpan in the US,” the Sikh Coalition said.

It said the legislation arose out of a number of Sikhs being arrested for carrying kirpans because the police mistakenly believes them to be in violation of concealed weapons laws.

“Our hope is that being educated about kirpan and its religious significance will decrease the number of wasteful arrests,” the coalition said.

“Given Sikhs’ long history in California, as well as the fact that this state has the highest number of Sikhs nationwide, it is entirely appropriate that California take this pioneering step,” said Neha Singh, Western Region Director of the Sikh Coalition. “We hope that the education will help reduce the number of Sikhs needlessly being arrested for practicing their faith and focus the energy of law enforcement on actual threats to the public safety,” Singh said.

The bill requires the commission on peace officer standards and training within the Department of Justice to make available to all the law enforcement agencies training content on how to recognise and interact with persons carrying a kirpan, as specified.

It requires that the training content includes instruction on how arrests of Sikhs carrying a kirpan have historically been treated and the alternatives to those arrests and detentions that have successfully been used.

http://sikhsangat.org/2009/09/california-house-passes-%E2%80%98kirpan%E2%80%99-bill/
 
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no offence but i dont think the jerkit smiley was necessary.

anyways we have something similar up here where sikhs are allowed to carry their kirpans although i think there are still some places where kirpans are restricted. its about cultural protection, and of course its not going to be fair to the masses. they just want to secure their right to practice religion and culture without fear of persecution.



anyways....



maybe we knife knuts should assemble and make a religion where it says we have to carry 15inch bowies on our belts at all times. :D
 
jca21 said:
no offence but i dont think the jerkit smiley was necessary.

anyways we have something similar up here where sikhs are allowed to carry their kirpans although i think there are still some places where kirpans are restricted. its about cultural protection, and of course its not going to be fair to the masses. they just want to secure their right to practice religion and culture without fear of persecution.



anyways....



maybe we knife knuts should assemble and make a religion where it says we have to carry 15inch bowies on our belts at all times. :D
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You may have misunderstood my statement. The :jerkit: is meant for the CA legislature for passing more dumb laws. I do not blame the Sikhs one bit. More power to them for getting this law passed. But the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution, provides that "no state shall ... deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws". Also what happened to the separation of church and state. There are many here that want to remove religious items from federal buildings but they are willing to give a privilege to a select few because of their religion?. Not right IMHO.
 
The separation of church and state is only a portion of the law. The same amendment protects your right to exercise your minority religion. You're just upset cause you come from the turn the other cheek religious environment. I had a friend who tried to convince his school that he was a Sikh. Back in the 60's that was a hard sell when your last name was Smith.

Generally if you are willing to wear the garb and carry the accessories you can effectively declare yourself a Sikh. You probably need to grow your hair and beard to sell it though.
 
There is a religion that all Americans share in common, it is called Freedom and liberty. Until those bastard law makers figure that out, our practices will be infringed. -just like the Sikhs.
 
thank you for clarifying the jerkit smiley regarding the CA legistlature.
 
Jeff Clark said:
The separation of church and state is only a portion of the law. The same amendment protects your right to exercise your minority religion. You're just upset cause you come from the turn the other cheek religious environment. I had a friend who tried to convince his school that he was a Sikh. Back in the 60's that was a hard sell when your last name was Smith.

Generally if you are willing to wear the garb and carry the accessories you can effectively declare yourself a Sikh. You probably need to grow your hair and beard to sell it though.
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The point here is, in CA:

Penal Code 12020 states,
(a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:
...
(4) Carries concealed upon his or her person any dirk or dagger.

So the CA lawmakers state:
"It said the legislation arose out of a number of Sikhs being arrested for carrying kirpans because the police mistakenly believes them to be in violation of concealed weapons laws."

So would you be ok if they passed a law in your state saying only redheads were allowed to CCW?
 
I may be mistaken but aren't kirpans carried openly on the belt rather than concealed?

Belt carry of almost any knife is allowed in California, though many local rules limit blade sizes.
 
I think "Los Angeles" is right that we are talking about open carry. The state of California says that exposed belt carry is ok if the knife is not a "dagger or dirk", but many municipalities say that you cannot carry a knife openly. This is a Catch-22 and the state law should probably take precedence. A reasonable argument is that a knife carried for a religious purpose is not primarily a weapon (is not a dagger or dirk) and hence should be legal for open carry. The type of knife and the religion of the carrier is prima facie evidence that the carry is legitimate. It is similar to a hunter carrying a hunting knife or a produce clerk carrying a trimming knife.
 
jca21 said:
thank you for clarifying the jerkit smiley regarding the CA legistlature.
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Seems I recall those are the same guys who can't handle a basic budget.

It should be an "I owe you a Jerkit Smiley".
 
Hey. I am a Brooklyn Italian, so can I carry my 15" Italian Stiletto in CA now ? There should be little to no knife laws, but where there are laws they should be evenly enfoced. As a former NYC LEO I arrested many Jamican "Rastas" that swore pot smoking was their religious right also. NY did not change the law for them or retrain officers....
 
Don't have much to add, gents, but I do have an image of a subhilt kirpan.
Though not a very good one, it was the sellers'. :)
Sikh knifemaker Jot Singh Khalsa built it and I believe they are worn on the belt.

standard.jpg


Doug
 
"The Kirpan is the symbol crystallising the fact that when a Khalsa joins this army, he or she has left behind the docile environment of subservience and subordination and has joined the proactive and caring world of the fearless, brave, and courageous defence force of Guru Gobind Singh. The recruits of this army have a dynamic and constant duty to protect and to fight for justice for all the people of the world and to side with the oppressed and offer assistance and support to all weaker inhabitants without any reference to their race, sex, caste, nationality, religion, or beliefs. If this kirpan is removed, it is like removing their spiritual identity.

The Kirpan is one of the Five K's of the Khalsa Sikhs. Kirpan literally means 'weapon of defence' (kirpa means mercy and aan means bless), as opposed to the 'talwar', a weapon of offence."

Seems I've read a similar sentiment about carrying arms for an equally altruistic purpose. Liberty for all not just a select few....unless....?

Amendment II

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."
 
I have mixed feelings about this. Although, it is for religious purposes, it could still be good for knife culture in general, but I can't help but feel this is stupid legislation. =\
 
Jeff Clark said:
The separation of church and state is only a portion of the law. The same amendment protects your right to exercise your minority religion. You're just upset cause you come from the turn the other cheek religious environment. I had a friend who tried to convince his school that he was a Sikh. Back in the 60's that was a hard sell when your last name was Smith.

Generally if you are willing to wear the garb and carry the accessories you can effectively declare yourself a Sikh. You probably need to grow your hair and beard to sell it though.
Click to expand...


tom19176 said:
Hey. I am a Brooklyn Italian, so can I carry my 15" Italian Stiletto in CA now ? There should be little to no knife laws, but where there are laws they should be evenly enfoced. As a former NYC LEO I arrested many Jamican "Rastas" that swore pot smoking was their religious right also. NY did not change the law for them or retrain officers....
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I believe that the sentiment Tom is describing more accurately describes our legal history. The earliest case questioning generally applicable (or neutral) laws that interfere with religious practice was Reynolds v. United States 98 US 125(1878). Reynolds was questioning a federal law that criminalized polygamy, and prevented Mormons from doing their religious duty. In that opinion the court made several key points.
  • That free exercise deprives Congress "all legislative power over mere opinion"
  • That Congress remains "free to reach actions which were in violation of social duties or subversive to good order."
  • "Can a man excuse his practices to the contrary because of his religious belief? To permit this would be to make the professed doctrines of religious belief superior to the law of the land, and in effect permit every citizen to become a law unto himself."
With some exceptions, that basic thinking has guided cases up to the present.

Religious exemptions really did not become en vogue until the early to mid-1990s; in the aftermath of Smith in which the court upheld his emplomyment termination for "religiously inspired peyote use."
 
Jeff Clark said:
I think "Los Angeles" is right that we are talking about open carry. The state of California says that exposed belt carry is ok if the knife is not a "dagger or dirk", but many municipalities say that you cannot carry a knife openly. This is a Catch-22 and the state law should probably take precedence. A reasonable argument is that a knife carried for a religious purpose is not primarily a weapon (is not a dagger or dirk) and hence should be legal for open carry. The type of knife and the religion of the carrier is prima facie evidence that the carry is legitimate. It is similar to a hunter carrying a hunting knife or a produce clerk carrying a trimming knife.
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ca law says a dirk/dagger may not be carried concealed, not that exposed carry is ok if the item is not a dirk/dagger.

however, you are correct in that many cities and counties prohibit such carry. it is not a catch 22, in that muni and county laws may be more restrictive than state or federal laws.

if it were reversed, and the city had more lenient laws, then the catch 22 would exist. such is the case with the ca medical marijuana law. federally marijuana is still illegal, and the state cannot enact a law more lenient than exisiting federal statutes.
 
Same exemption in Britain where not only are fixed blades effectively banned from carry (Tenuous "good reason" clauses excepted), but self defence with a weapon in public, particularly knives is highly penalised.

tom19176 said:
I arrested many Jamican "Rastas" that swore pot smoking was their religious right
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It does play some part in Rastafari beliefs, and Sikh believes too, but I expect it's a little too much for the politicians to stomach legalising.
 
My ancestry dates back to France. The French had quite a history with edged weapons, both knives and swords. And tom19176, whose ancestry is Italian, also mentioned the infamous Italian stiletto. If CA allows concealed carry of knives for Sikhs, they will be discriminating against the rest of us unless the type of Kirpan allowed to be legally carried is similar to a training knife (non-sharpened aluminum blade) or prop. The photo of the Kirpan posted by Doug C. sure looks like a live double-edged blade. Definitely jail-bait in CA and over here in MA as well.
 
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