For fellow Japanese quasi-traditionalists only...a rant...

R

Robert Marotz

Joined
Jul 2, 2000
Messages
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I'm gonna just rant for a few here...

Remember how guys like me are always arguing against the geo-tip tanto movement? The tactical stuff. I think it's odd how that is waning slightly (albeit not much), but a different falsified "Japanese style" is more apparently in view...and while makers don't necessarily say it's traditional, the contrast to the chisel-tip predecessor tends to insinuate that what these guys are making "traditional" or "proper" blades. Most of you should know what I'm talking about...

This isn't something I'm going to fight too readily, because the consumers are generally the ones who promote the stuff under such impressions, and ignorance is generally a blessing to them.

I have to say it IS a nice break from the chisel tips, but it seems to be like a Hydra...cleave off one head and another pops right back up.

Perhaps one reason why I am always so picky about calling "tanto" a sword is that when it's thought of as a knife, it is usually brought to parallels with the chisel tip and the less-ugly non traditional things. A cord wrap does not make a blade any more "Japanese" than a chisel tip.

I can understand the necessity of making things economically and to fit a certain niche in the market within a price range. But sometimes I have to wonder when these anonymous makers are actually going to make a few products that live up to their namesake. I'm afraid it's not likely to happen, because *I* cannot afford to pay makers to make mostly traditional, and such things wouldn't appeal so much to the "I want to pry open ammo boxes" crowd.

I'm not singling out any particular makers, there's about 8 or 9 I can think of offhand, and more if I gave it a little more thought.

I'm already wondering what the next "Japanese-style" knives will be. Maybe the next wave will take another small step closer, and include a habaki, or maybe correct fittings. Who knows? Maybe by then, so many people will be confused about what the hell a Japanese-style blade is, it will lose it's market. For some reason, I don't see that happening (unfortunately).

Ahh well. I think I'll bring my rant to an end here...

Shinryû.
 
Hrm...as an addendum...

I want to apologize for using the Forum once and a while as my own "venting" ground. If I offend anyone, I'm sorry. I'll refrain from posting too much more of my opinion like this in the future.

Shinryû.
 
Actually, your thread is of relevance to more than just traditionalists; it is of relevance to any knife collector who sees something on a maker's web page that says "traditional tanto" and then buys it, thinking he has purchased a bit of ancient history. It is better to be forewarned than deflated after the purchase . . .
 
Traditionalism has at least two values I can see:
1. our elders knew more about the subject than we do, and therefore their designs have more relevance and utility than we might understand by today's dim light;
2. and, traditional designs preserve historicity and aestheticism.

I object to false traditionalism because in this case it institutionalizes an invalid design concept and messes with history.

I don't mind the so-called tanto point when used to provide a strong and inexpensive-to-produce point for a blade with an otherwise fragile edge.
I object to the maker implying its traditional and thereby historical conformation to type.

Then again, perhaps I completely missed Robert's point.
smile.gif


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Luke 22:36, John 18:6-11, Freedom
If one takes care of the means, the end will take care of itself.
 
I don't know if I was trying to do anything more than vent a little...but to make a point of what I was saying...

The traditionalists can do little in protest, some just quietly grumble over it, some laugh, some argue. Some of us try what we can to clear things up...and the right people getting the right understanding and promoting it has helped dispell the geo-tip "tanto" concept. However, with more and more people understanding that "geo-tip" isn't really "Japanese style," other variations that claim to be "Japanese style" hop into the spotlight. I don't like picking out names but to give you some examples of such work, Steve Corkum's shobu, basically everything "japanese" on Mike Snody's page, et cetera. These kinds of things have been around for a while, but with the waning popularity of the "tanto" tip, these are the new "wave" of tanto-style knives. And because they are considered more "traditionally shaped" than the chisel-tipped predecessors, many people get the idea that this is what tanto really are. It's just replacing one bad reinterpretation with another.

And as I've said before, I don't mind what people make really, it's the naming of things that gets misleading. As a person who is fond of many real tanto, I get excited when someone who *also* likes tanto asks me some questions. However, those feelings turn a bit sour when they're asking me about how to sharpen a chisel-ground tanto or how to take care of paracord or nylon or whatever wrap.

I was just venting about how some of us were excited when the misinterpretation of chisel-tip = Japanese started to decline...but then this other stuff leaps up in popularity. This time it's even more convincing to consumers considering what it is a successor to.

I mean no real disrespect to makers actually. I was looking at Mike Snody's page just today and I like his "Karma Kozuka" as *knives*, but most certainly not as "Japanese style, and definitely not as "kozuka."

Shinryû.
 
Well at least there are some makers out there that do make traditional japanese stuff. I cant find anyone in the states that makes anything close to traditional moro stuff. The best so far is Cecil Quirino and well his moro stuff is like his japanese stuff, not very. Ive found that people who tend to claim to be using modernised japanese stuff only use that claim to hide shoddy workmanship and design. Its easier to say this is a modernised version than to say its too hard for me to make something more authentic. OF course this doesnt apply to everyone, but Ive seen enough crap to say it happens.
 
Hey Robert
I don't mind the "rant" at all, but I'll tell you what I'd really like. Could I perhaps persuade you to post some pictures of the different "tanto" styles you talk about.
Show us what a TRUE Traditional tanto point is, a "chisel point" (I'm assuming you're talking about something like an Emerson CQC7) and this other, closer, but still not traditional point.
Show us the differences and explain whats wrong.
I know precious little about japanese blades, but I'd like to learn!


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Tráceme no sin la razón, envoltura mi no sin honor
Usual Suspect
 
Here is a chisel point:

cr-2310.jpg


Here is an example of the more contemporary knives:

IMG REMOVED

And here's a traditional tanto:

11.8.00.2.gif


These pictures aren't the best examples in the world but they give you an idea...

Addendum: The differences are both in a) fittings, b) blade shape.

On the more contemporaries...I don't know what to call the "knot" at the top, I've heard it referred to as turk's head or something to that degree. There is no habaki. There looks to be a secondary bevel at the edge. It is chisel-ground. I could be wrong but the rayskin looks like it's wrapped over a fat tang, no wooden core. No apparent mekugi. No clues as to it being dismountable, which is a standard in Japanese blades. No fuchi or kashira. No seppa, no tsuba. It is a knife that has a handle of rayskin overwrapped with nylon.

And as far as the chisel ground...I can't really seem to think of any similarities other than it probably has a sharp edge and is made of a type of metal.

[This message has been edited by Robert Marotz (edited 03-07-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Robert Marotz (edited 06-14-2001).]
 
Thanks for the pics.
Yes, the chisel grind is what I figured you were talking about.
The knot you refer to IS known as a turk's head and is often seen on Western European wire wrapped grips. I doubt it was ever a Japanese design, but it looks great on those knives! (interesting menuki too!)
But aside from a slight difference in tip curvature and the obvious difference in furniture what else is wrong with it?
Is there a specific curvature it must have to be "traditional?"


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Tráceme no sin la razón, envoltura mi no sin honor
Usual Suspect
 
I could also get into the discussion about the type of heat treat and materials, but I usually don't care what other people want in terms of such things.

http://www.runningdogknife.bigstep.com/item.jhtml?UCIDs=354455%7C354458&PRID=456957

There's an example of the word "traditional" being used in a most misleading way.

Moving right along...

Curvature, width, length, thickness, et cetera aren't set in stone. The criteria to be "Japanese-style" is not all that stringent at least in my opinion.

One of the big things is the dismountability, being able to remove the handle from the blade. Even the little kozuka had this. Another is shaping. There is no ricasso. The "grind" goes all the way through the tang. There's no real flat surfaces, and no hollow grinds, and no secondary bevels.

In addition, the fittings are more important than people give them credit for being. In many cases, the mountings themselves designate what a sword is. Sure, there are subtle differences like the side of the tang the mei is on, but a blade in tachi fittings is a tachi, it doesn't matter if the signature is on the omote or ura.

Maybe it's just too easy for people to associate cord wraps with Japanese. Oh well...
 
Yeah, I see what you mean, that's a cute little neck knife, but there's nothing even remotely "tanto-esque" about it. I guess "tantos" are hot now, and people will try to cash in on current trends. C'est la affaires de commerce.
frown.gif


Thanks for the lesson, you're a good teacher.


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Tráceme no sin la razón, envoltura mi no sin honor
Usual Suspect
 
Thanks...

Here's a sketch I did of an unmounted tanto.

View


It was initially to help an individual understand the basic shaping, but I got a little carried away. It's nowhere near as finely drawn as the oshigata you see from folks like aoi art, but then again I was using a fairly dull pencil and I'm lousy at drawing and scanning.

[This message has been edited by Robert Marotz (edited 03-08-2001).]
 
whoops, pic doesn't show up.
smile.gif


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Tráceme no sin la razón, envoltura mi no sin honor
Usual Suspect
 
Hey Rob,

The drawing is not bad!

This is my hira-zukuri (approximately mean flat grind) tanto.
View

View

And this is my shobu-zukuri (made in the shape of the shobu-leaf which has the shape of a tall grass leaf) wakizashi. single edge.
View

View



Joe


[This message has been edited by JoeL (edited 03-09-2001).]
 
Heya Joe...nice tanto! I like what's going on in the yakiba in the shobu zukuri, and your Shigenmasa looks to have a very complimentary polish. I don't care much for horimono tho if ya know what I mean. They got their place too, but I don't much care for them...like scrimshaw I guess, some like it, some don't.

Thanks for sharing the photos and oshigata. I did some up fairly well when I had the right pencil, but with a dull one you never get those crisp lines, know what I mean?

Shinryû.

P.S. Did ya read the mei in my drawing?
biggrin.gif


[This message has been edited by Robert Marotz (edited 03-09-2001).]
 
As always Mr. Martoz I apprecaite your lessons on 'real' tantoes. I am a fan of non traditional 'Jap Tantoes' as I call them and thanks to your insights I feel very educated in differentiating the two. I would rather not take sides as to which is superior they are both niches of their own.

Marketting will always be there and I doubt that American makers will step down from calling their knives 'Tantoes' or traditional style grind. It's just part of life and also part of one's free expression. If one says "Japanese style" then it is a maker's interpretation and expresison of a design.. I think he draws the line though when he markets his 'Jap Tacs' as 'the REAL mccoy.'

as an aside I am a big fan of Jerry Hossom and Mike Snody.. not taking sides just saying how I feel.

It is the responsibility of the buyer and collector to educate his or herself in what he is buying and I think your 'rants' are actually very informative. I read them all the time and feel smarter for it.. i will still continue to encourage makers who make 'jap tacs' though, and will not push them not to rename their wares cause I feel I have educated myself and I do not think the makers I correspons with use the names to sell but because they like evolving the art.

One day when I have higher apprecaition (and a higher paycheck) we can share an talk abtou real tantoes
smile.gif
cheers

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URBAN.LEGENDS.(BalisongGARBAGE)
ENGEL.DESIGN.ROOM
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If you play with love you will be heartbroken; if you play with knives you will [bleed]
 
Good topic, Reiki! Just a side point, how do you feel about the Tanto drop point in SMK catalogs? Its basically a hawkbill with a false edge. How in the world can they call it a tanto?? Also, I saw the pic of the running dog "tanto", it is no way a tanto, but a clip point or drop point with a straight drop to the edge! I totally get what you are saying. Hopefully I will get the satanite soon, so I can play with it over my Easter Break
smile.gif
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by sniperboy:
As always Mr. Martoz I apprecaite your lessons on 'real' tantoes. I am a fan of non traditional 'Jap Tantoes' as I call them and thanks to your insights I feel very educated in differentiating the two. I would rather not take sides as to which is superior they are both niches of their own.

Marketting will always be there and I doubt that American makers will step down from calling their knives 'Tantoes' or traditional style grind. It's just part of life and also part of one's free expression. If one says "Japanese style" then it is a maker's interpretation and expresison of a design.. I think he draws the line though when he markets his 'Jap Tacs' as 'the REAL mccoy.'

as an aside I am a big fan of Jerry Hossom and Mike Snody.. not taking sides just saying how I feel.

It is the responsibility of the buyer and collector to educate his or herself in what he is buying and I think your 'rants' are actually very informative. I read them all the time and feel smarter for it.. i will still continue to encourage makers who make 'jap tacs' though, and will not push them not to rename their wares cause I feel I have educated myself and I do not think the makers I correspons with use the names to sell but because they like evolving the art.

One day when I have higher apprecaition (and a higher paycheck) we can share an talk abtou real tantoes
smile.gif
cheers

</font>
Click to expand...

With no sarcasm or flame-ignition intended (but just maybe a little bit of PC policing), let me gently suggest that you consider how you use terms like "Jap tantoes" or "Jap tacs." The term "Jap," while a convenient shorthand, is also an ethnic slur.

A great first step in learning about the traditional Japanese blade would be not antagonizing people from the culture from which it comes. People tend to be much more open about discussions when they aren't insulted right off the bat.
 
Taz: I haven't encountered the catalog you refer to, but thanks for bringing it up. There's lots of products there that go by designations that they perhaps "don't deserve" (albeit that seems a shade arrogant, but not intended that way).

And Kenshi, I agree with how you feel about the slurs and what not. I do think the intention was probably more as a typing convenience, an abbreviation than anything. I'm not going to strictly enforce this but it would be appreciated if people could take the extra second or three (depending on your typing speed) to avoid names or designations that could be construed as derogatory. This is not focused at any one individual either, I'm not trying to single anyone out.

Thanks.
 
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