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For fellow Japanese quasi-traditionalists only...a rant...
- Thread starter Robert Marotz
- Start date
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2000
- Messages
- 941
DrRMJ: Yep technically. Though it still is a designation of tanto
- Joined
- Sep 17, 1999
- Messages
- 347
Dear Mr Marotz...
Please forgive me if I have offended your aesthetic sensibilities in any way...
You speak of "anonymous makers" and not "singling out any particular makers" but you provide a link to our website to make your case...You can't have it both ways, sir...
I believe Running Dog to be very accessable to the public...If you have a problem with our work, I wish you had brought it to my attention via email rather than "ranting" publicly about it...
You use the terms "misleading" and "falsified"...Strong words with rather specific meanings, both negative...
I would hope that you are not suggesting that I'm involved in a delibrate deception here...Or that my "intent" was to fool the public in any way...
Our work is ment to be "derivative"...I find it very hard to believe that anyone would be fooled into thinking our work represents 300 year old Japanese knife construction techniques...I make quite clear the materials used and how we make the knives, and try to provide clear pictures of our work...Surely you can see that...
I have struggled hard to come up with a new name for this knife, the "Traditional Tanto"...Personaly I don't like it and haven't for some time, but so far I haven't come up with a new name...
As this knife style has evolved, it is less and less like the "original" Japanese design it was based on...
I don't know if you are a knifemaker or manage a catalog of over 20 styles, but coming up with names for all these knives is tough...Maybe I should just number them like Randall does...
And for better or worse, the word Tanto has changed over the years...For the vast majority of Americans buying knives, this means a chisel ground blade of around 6-7 inches...
Am I wrong to use this term just because you don't like it? I get mail all the time from customers asking about "Tantos"...I guess I should just blow them off as being ignorant...
I'm not an expert on Japanese knives and don't make myself out to be so, but I understood "Tanto" to refer to a size of knife and not a specific tip style or handle treatment...I had hoped that the move away from a chisel tip would in fact be more "traditional"...
You will be happy to note that I will remove all referances from our website to "Japanese" "Traditional" or "Tanto"...
Thank you for bringing this to our attention...
"Cashing in"...Yes, that's what we do at Running Dog, sell knives to our customers...That's what makes us a knife company and helps pay the bills around here...Lucky get grumpy when he doesn't get his dog chow...This is not a hobby for us...
I won't get very far insisting that people buy knife styles they don't want...Knives go in and out of fashion just like everything else...And right now chisel tip knives are very popular...
Also I'm very sorry to think that there is a perception that knifemakers are "deceiving" people or trying to rip them off in any way...None of the custom makers I have met so far have given me that impression...
As a knifemaker, our credibilty, reputation and good name is all we have...Would you rather we went out of business just because you don't like the name of one of our knives?
Any suggestion that you make without proof that we are delibrately "misleading" our customers could be devastating to us, have you concidered that?
I'm sure people respect your opinons...Was it your -intent-, sir, to say we run our business based on deception? I hope not...
Protection of a companies integrity is often a matter worthy of litigation...I believe the word is "libel"...
Your complaint wasn't about our products but about my lack of imagination when it comes to naming knives...I will attempt to do better in the future...
To be honest with you, we are not getting rich here...We're just two guys and a dog in a garage trying to make a living in a very tough market...And there is still a chance that we may not survive...
Every day of the last two years has been a struggle for us to do good work and provide our customers with the service they deserve...And sell enough knives just to keep going...For myself, I would rather be in this business than back working at Kinkos...
I hope you can understand why this issue of our credibility is important to me...
So far the folks who have bought our knives and used them have been very happy with them...Our Personal Tanto and Traditional Tanto sell well for us...I will however rename them tonight so that we will no longer be concidered "misleading"...
Yours,
Michael Murphy
Running Dog Knife Company
Please forgive me if I have offended your aesthetic sensibilities in any way...
You speak of "anonymous makers" and not "singling out any particular makers" but you provide a link to our website to make your case...You can't have it both ways, sir...
I believe Running Dog to be very accessable to the public...If you have a problem with our work, I wish you had brought it to my attention via email rather than "ranting" publicly about it...
You use the terms "misleading" and "falsified"...Strong words with rather specific meanings, both negative...
I would hope that you are not suggesting that I'm involved in a delibrate deception here...Or that my "intent" was to fool the public in any way...
Our work is ment to be "derivative"...I find it very hard to believe that anyone would be fooled into thinking our work represents 300 year old Japanese knife construction techniques...I make quite clear the materials used and how we make the knives, and try to provide clear pictures of our work...Surely you can see that...
I have struggled hard to come up with a new name for this knife, the "Traditional Tanto"...Personaly I don't like it and haven't for some time, but so far I haven't come up with a new name...
As this knife style has evolved, it is less and less like the "original" Japanese design it was based on...
I don't know if you are a knifemaker or manage a catalog of over 20 styles, but coming up with names for all these knives is tough...Maybe I should just number them like Randall does...
And for better or worse, the word Tanto has changed over the years...For the vast majority of Americans buying knives, this means a chisel ground blade of around 6-7 inches...
Am I wrong to use this term just because you don't like it? I get mail all the time from customers asking about "Tantos"...I guess I should just blow them off as being ignorant...
I'm not an expert on Japanese knives and don't make myself out to be so, but I understood "Tanto" to refer to a size of knife and not a specific tip style or handle treatment...I had hoped that the move away from a chisel tip would in fact be more "traditional"...
You will be happy to note that I will remove all referances from our website to "Japanese" "Traditional" or "Tanto"...
Thank you for bringing this to our attention...
"Cashing in"...Yes, that's what we do at Running Dog, sell knives to our customers...That's what makes us a knife company and helps pay the bills around here...Lucky get grumpy when he doesn't get his dog chow...This is not a hobby for us...
I won't get very far insisting that people buy knife styles they don't want...Knives go in and out of fashion just like everything else...And right now chisel tip knives are very popular...
Also I'm very sorry to think that there is a perception that knifemakers are "deceiving" people or trying to rip them off in any way...None of the custom makers I have met so far have given me that impression...
As a knifemaker, our credibilty, reputation and good name is all we have...Would you rather we went out of business just because you don't like the name of one of our knives?
Any suggestion that you make without proof that we are delibrately "misleading" our customers could be devastating to us, have you concidered that?
I'm sure people respect your opinons...Was it your -intent-, sir, to say we run our business based on deception? I hope not...
Protection of a companies integrity is often a matter worthy of litigation...I believe the word is "libel"...
Your complaint wasn't about our products but about my lack of imagination when it comes to naming knives...I will attempt to do better in the future...
To be honest with you, we are not getting rich here...We're just two guys and a dog in a garage trying to make a living in a very tough market...And there is still a chance that we may not survive...
Every day of the last two years has been a struggle for us to do good work and provide our customers with the service they deserve...And sell enough knives just to keep going...For myself, I would rather be in this business than back working at Kinkos...
I hope you can understand why this issue of our credibility is important to me...
So far the folks who have bought our knives and used them have been very happy with them...Our Personal Tanto and Traditional Tanto sell well for us...I will however rename them tonight so that we will no longer be concidered "misleading"...
Yours,
Michael Murphy
Running Dog Knife Company
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2000
- Messages
- 941
Mr. Murphy...
As I have stated previously, I have nothing against the work of another individual, but rather the conceptions that have developed. When I posted your site, it was an example. I posted a picture of a knife by Mike Snody also. Would you like me to continue by posting works of other makers? I merely brought it to attention to demonstrate that sometimes the words traditional tanto DO show up in such scenarios.
Also be it noted the thread initially was intended for the semi-traditionalist fans of Japanese style, as the few of them may share some of my opinions and understand where I am coming from in accordance to the style.
Much of what I say is ignored by knifemakers, and I have made some efforts in the past to politely and privately bring such things to individual makers' and marketers' attention, but over time I have lost a lot of faith in talking to them due to responses.
I do believe *many* people are mistaken in their opinions of what some things are. Particularly when it comes from the knife community, where words like "tanto" constantly grace the pages of magazines because in the knife public, they are accepted as a twisted, misinterpreted bastardization of what they really are.
Would you like an apology for bringing up your company in this thread? Very well. I'm sorry.
If I intended to establish your business and all others as based on deception, it would have been a very clear statement. Regardless of your intentions, the titles that are bestowed onto particular pieces are commonly accepted by consumers. But to set the record straight, your business is fine and you were acting in overall good judgement when you felt you needed to defend its integrity.
As I have defined before, a tanto is also not really a knife. Such are technicalities that people simply don't care about, and generally it doesn't matter.
But I would rest easy if I were you...there's 14 people who give a damn about what I say.
I also am somewhat pleased with your gesture to correct some names, but in another sense I feel like you'd just be doing it to keep someone like me off your back. If this is your intention, it will work. Otherwise, thank you.
I do not think ANYONE here has any qualms with individual makers for this subject. a particular page was brought up to describe an example. Would you have made the same objection if I had brought up Steve Corkum's shobu models? Your business is in no jeopardy because of me or the opinions that I have.
Addendum:
"A knife not based on any traditional designs at all...No sir...
Competely original in every way...I'm not kidding!"
Is this mocking me?
If so, it is not appreciated.
Second Addendum:
I am going to reiterate that my rant was to vent my frustration, and examples I posted were to display some of the different variations the term 'tanto' has spread to. The bitter shame of it is that it has been around so long that it is impossible to change really...all I can do is help educate those who give a tumbling fruit.
[This message has been edited by Robert Marotz (edited 03-10-2001).]
As I have stated previously, I have nothing against the work of another individual, but rather the conceptions that have developed. When I posted your site, it was an example. I posted a picture of a knife by Mike Snody also. Would you like me to continue by posting works of other makers? I merely brought it to attention to demonstrate that sometimes the words traditional tanto DO show up in such scenarios.
Also be it noted the thread initially was intended for the semi-traditionalist fans of Japanese style, as the few of them may share some of my opinions and understand where I am coming from in accordance to the style.
Much of what I say is ignored by knifemakers, and I have made some efforts in the past to politely and privately bring such things to individual makers' and marketers' attention, but over time I have lost a lot of faith in talking to them due to responses.
I do believe *many* people are mistaken in their opinions of what some things are. Particularly when it comes from the knife community, where words like "tanto" constantly grace the pages of magazines because in the knife public, they are accepted as a twisted, misinterpreted bastardization of what they really are.
Would you like an apology for bringing up your company in this thread? Very well. I'm sorry.
If I intended to establish your business and all others as based on deception, it would have been a very clear statement. Regardless of your intentions, the titles that are bestowed onto particular pieces are commonly accepted by consumers. But to set the record straight, your business is fine and you were acting in overall good judgement when you felt you needed to defend its integrity.
As I have defined before, a tanto is also not really a knife. Such are technicalities that people simply don't care about, and generally it doesn't matter.
But I would rest easy if I were you...there's 14 people who give a damn about what I say.
I also am somewhat pleased with your gesture to correct some names, but in another sense I feel like you'd just be doing it to keep someone like me off your back. If this is your intention, it will work. Otherwise, thank you.
I do not think ANYONE here has any qualms with individual makers for this subject. a particular page was brought up to describe an example. Would you have made the same objection if I had brought up Steve Corkum's shobu models? Your business is in no jeopardy because of me or the opinions that I have.
Addendum:
"A knife not based on any traditional designs at all...No sir...
Competely original in every way...I'm not kidding!"
Is this mocking me?
If so, it is not appreciated.
Second Addendum:
I am going to reiterate that my rant was to vent my frustration, and examples I posted were to display some of the different variations the term 'tanto' has spread to. The bitter shame of it is that it has been around so long that it is impossible to change really...all I can do is help educate those who give a tumbling fruit.
[This message has been edited by Robert Marotz (edited 03-10-2001).]
Man,
Perhaps it is so that some people who study or have an interest in Japanese-style blades are more concerned with the classification, terminology, and designation of the blades, knives and swords.
I think Robert makes a good point in what he is stating because he has knowledge of the definitions and classifications of Japanese blade design. I believe he wants people to be aware about the designs.
For example, the katana, the wakisashi, and the tanto are all sword styles delineated by the lenght of the blades. A tanto is generally a sword, with a guard, with a blade around 12". An aikuchi is a tanto but without a guard. A hamadashi is a the same but with a small guard. A kwaiken is a utilitarian knife, generally with a shorter than 12" blade that was commonly unmounted. I've read that it was generally carried by women as a utility knife. A small utility-type knife was known as a kiridashi. There was no designated "tanto point" and this usuage is of Western design. The maker that popularized the chisel grind, geometric "tanto" point was Phill Hartsfield, who also was the first to do the epoxy cord wraps that are now very popular. Incidently, Hartsfield doesn't call it "tanto." Again, the definitions become clouded because he uses the term "yoroi toshi" or "armor-piecer" which was actually a traditional Japanese design that didn't look anything like the geo tanto. Also to clarify, specific blade styles were given names, such as Shinogi Zukuri, Shobu Zukuri, and Hira Zukuri. Most traditional Japanese tantos, I've read were of the Hira design. Perhaps Robert can post some pictures of the various designs (I don't know how).
I for one like the modern designs. They were some of the first knives that I was first interested in. But later, through some study, I discovered that there was more than just "chisel-tip, Japanese-style tanto." There is an entire field of study regarding the traditional Japanese blades that is absolutely fascinating, especially if someone also has an interest in Japanese sword art.
[This message has been edited by DrRMJ (edited 03-10-2001).]
[This message has been edited by DrRMJ (edited 03-10-2001).]
[This message has been edited by DrRMJ (edited 03-10-2001).]
Perhaps it is so that some people who study or have an interest in Japanese-style blades are more concerned with the classification, terminology, and designation of the blades, knives and swords.
I think Robert makes a good point in what he is stating because he has knowledge of the definitions and classifications of Japanese blade design. I believe he wants people to be aware about the designs.
For example, the katana, the wakisashi, and the tanto are all sword styles delineated by the lenght of the blades. A tanto is generally a sword, with a guard, with a blade around 12". An aikuchi is a tanto but without a guard. A hamadashi is a the same but with a small guard. A kwaiken is a utilitarian knife, generally with a shorter than 12" blade that was commonly unmounted. I've read that it was generally carried by women as a utility knife. A small utility-type knife was known as a kiridashi. There was no designated "tanto point" and this usuage is of Western design. The maker that popularized the chisel grind, geometric "tanto" point was Phill Hartsfield, who also was the first to do the epoxy cord wraps that are now very popular. Incidently, Hartsfield doesn't call it "tanto." Again, the definitions become clouded because he uses the term "yoroi toshi" or "armor-piecer" which was actually a traditional Japanese design that didn't look anything like the geo tanto. Also to clarify, specific blade styles were given names, such as Shinogi Zukuri, Shobu Zukuri, and Hira Zukuri. Most traditional Japanese tantos, I've read were of the Hira design. Perhaps Robert can post some pictures of the various designs (I don't know how).
I for one like the modern designs. They were some of the first knives that I was first interested in. But later, through some study, I discovered that there was more than just "chisel-tip, Japanese-style tanto." There is an entire field of study regarding the traditional Japanese blades that is absolutely fascinating, especially if someone also has an interest in Japanese sword art.
[This message has been edited by DrRMJ (edited 03-10-2001).]
[This message has been edited by DrRMJ (edited 03-10-2001).]
[This message has been edited by DrRMJ (edited 03-10-2001).]
- Joined
- Sep 17, 1999
- Messages
- 347
Mr. Marotz, thank you for your responce...
If I may...
It was my feeling that you were suggesting deliberate "misleading" behavior on my part where none was intended...
If I am wrong about this, please accept my apologies...
This is very grasious of you, thank you...Feel free to mention Running Dog as often as you like, my only concern was the suggestion that I was misleading anyone...
No, I want to thank you for pointing out the misuse of the word "tanto" at my website...Words -are- important and should convey specific meaning to be useful...
In retrospect, I can see that this was a little smart ass on my part, you'll forgive me, I was angry at the time...
However, it was not directed at you personally, just an attempt to lighten my own mood at the time...I'll remove it from my website...
I'm sorry this was our first introduction...
Yours,
Michael
Running Dog Knife Company
If I may...
It was my feeling that you were suggesting deliberate "misleading" behavior on my part where none was intended...
If I am wrong about this, please accept my apologies...
This is very grasious of you, thank you...Feel free to mention Running Dog as often as you like, my only concern was the suggestion that I was misleading anyone...
No, I want to thank you for pointing out the misuse of the word "tanto" at my website...Words -are- important and should convey specific meaning to be useful...
In retrospect, I can see that this was a little smart ass on my part, you'll forgive me, I was angry at the time...
However, it was not directed at you personally, just an attempt to lighten my own mood at the time...I'll remove it from my website...
I'm sorry this was our first introduction...
Yours,
Michael
Running Dog Knife Company
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2000
- Messages
- 941
I'm glad we appear to be ending that on relatively good terms. Were you referred here by someone who saw the thread or do you lurk about once in a while? Just curious...
- Joined
- Oct 19, 1999
- Messages
- 2,836
Well amidst the passion here I woudl just liek to chime in to say that I apologize and will use "Japn Tac." from now on. I apologize again because this is not my first offense and I would liek to say I am of asian descent, proud of my heritage, and meant to derogatory slang.
I do hope though that my slip up wit the PC is nott he only noteworthy point in my post.. have a nice weekend
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URBAN.LEGENDS.(BalisongGARBAGE)
ENGEL.DESIGN.ROOM
[FAKE01].[the mirror site](www.rejectionist.com)
Knives.I.Want
If you play with love you will be heartbroken; if you play with knives you will [bleed]
I do hope though that my slip up wit the PC is nott he only noteworthy point in my post.. have a nice weekend
------------------
URBAN.LEGENDS.(BalisongGARBAGE)
ENGEL.DESIGN.ROOM
[FAKE01].[the mirror site](www.rejectionist.com)
Knives.I.Want
If you play with love you will be heartbroken; if you play with knives you will [bleed]
- Joined
- Sep 17, 1999
- Messages
- 347
The hot link to the Traditional Tanto you provided as an example, sent a flurry of activity to my website...I just followed the link back...
Running Dog
------------------
Running Dog Knife Company
http://www.runningdogknife.bigstep.com
runningdog@dog.com
mmurphy@premier1.net
Running Dog
------------------
Running Dog Knife Company
http://www.runningdogknife.bigstep.com
runningdog@dog.com
mmurphy@premier1.net