For the greatest pleasures - is some pain necessary?

[Diomedes Industries]

This is probably slightly off topic - but I am thinking of bushcraft an woods use when I think of this.

It seems that being helicoptered to the top of a peak does not have the same feeling that hiking it does. A morning next to your built fire does not have the same feeling as if it was simply made for you by a servant.

I think those things bring you some pleasure - but the accomplishment, and frankly the pain that you went through to get what you have seems to make it better.

I think about peaks I have bagged, trails I have hikes, skills I have learned and the ones that came hard I am more proud of.

Then I take this to its fruition. Can I have true happiness, true pleasure, without the pain of earning it, making it, learning it, or doing it?

I wonder how much of our chosen lifestyle is based on the pain it takes to do it.


What are your thoughts on this topic?


TF

 

[udtjim]

I can never find those darn servants when I need them.

I can't see how one can get a feeling of accomplishment in having others carry the whole load. Anything worth doing is worth doing yourself.

One exception, when you start getting older, it sure doesn't hurt my ego to let the younger guys do the backbreaking stuff. There comes a time when the pain starts overcoming the satisfaction.

 

[Diomedes Industries]

Jim,

So some balance must be achieved huh? I wonder how that can be achieved....


TF

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Happiness and unhappiness are two sides of the same coin and are the result of the magnitude of transition from one state to the other. The happiest man in the world isn't a millionaire who was born rich and stayed that way--he's a homeless man given a hot meal, a shower, new clothes and a place to sleep. By the same token if that rich man suddenly loses everything and becomes ruined he will find himself the among the most unhappy men in existence.

So no, you can't have happiness without a certain degree of unhappiness or want. But then again...if you had everything wouldn't life be dull? Now go make yourself happy by going outside, building a friction fire, and then coming back inside and enjoying the glories of home heating.

 

[Diomedes Industries]

The happiest man in the world isn't a millionaire who was born rich and stayed that way--he's a homeless man given a hot meal, a shower, new clothes and a place to sleep.

Don't you think 42, that the homeless mans happiness is temporary in this case - and thus his happiness is fleeting. Making him not the happiest in the world?

Wouldn't what would make him happier is to work to have the means for food and shelter? This would be more long term and involve a pain that leads to pleasure instead of a pain like has when he is homeless?


TF


p.s. I am not claiming that homeless people simply need to work harder... just an example taking off from the post of 42.

 

[Mentor]

Short answer? Yes. Particularly if you're a massochist.

Seriously though, while I can think of some exceptions, in general I think Talfuchre is right about this. It's not the destination - it's the journey. Similarly, I often find the acquisition of knowledge (the process of figuring something out) to be more rewarding than receiving information in a pre-packaged state. It is always nice to feel like a desired outcome is the result of hard work and achievement (perseverance).

I might take issue with the use of 'pain' in this discussion, though, as I tend to see that as a biological concept as opposed to a philosophical one. Perhaps 'hard work', 'struggle', and 'resistance' would be more useful concepts. To take a W&SS example, I once spent a whole day canoeing across a lake then hiking / climbing a mountain. I was exhausted by the time I reached the summit, and in no small amount of pain - my knees and thighs were burning from the climb, and my shoulders were feeling the 20 km of paddling. I found the whole experience to be challenging, and I enjoyed having to push myself to complete it. The pain, while doubtless a reminder of the effort, was of secondary importance to the experience of struggle itself.

All the best,

- Mike

 

[wildmike]

This is probably gonna sound strange to some.

I wound up homeless for several years. I was one of the lucky ones in that I already possesed extensive survival skills. I found it to be like a camping trip without an end date.

While there was a certain amount of pain and of frustration during those years. They were overall some of the happiest times I've known.

I don't know if pain is a neccesity but something seems to happen spiritualy inside people in hard circumstances which produces a much deeper grattitude and appreciation of that which is rather than the constant seeking over that which they wish was.

 

[theonew]

I love pushing myself hard, I like the endorphins

My servant is rather useless, only collects wet firewood :grumpy:

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Don't you think 42, that the homeless mans happiness is temporary in this case - and thus his happiness is fleeting. Making him not the happiest in the world?

Wouldn't what would make him happier is to work to have the means for food and shelter? This would be more long term and involve a pain that leads to pleasure instead of a pain like has when he is homeless?


TF


p.s. I am not claiming that homeless people simply need to work harder... just an example taking off from the post of 42.

That would indeed be a longer lasting form of happiness. However, for that one moment in time, he would be incredibly happy. He would then become more crestfallen after he returned to the streets. And so on. It's all about managing the events of your life in such a way as to continuously be pushing towards extended happiness as opposed to the temporary. For instance, drug addicts are incredibly happy for that short time that they're high, but I've never seen a druggie that you could say actually has a happy life. Whereas those that have spent their lives furthering themselves through hard work tend to be much more fulfilled since that kind of happiness lasts much longer.

So in short we're in total agreement.

 

[Toucan Oasis]

Ah. The rush you get after a few hours of heart pounding and knee wobbling to catch a view you never saw before.
I love dragging touristas around listening to them whine and then OH MY GOD...LOLhttp://www.flickr.com/photos/30121645@N08/4017340668/

 

[udtjim]

I achieved it by having a super great wife for 42 years and raising some kids that enjoy the outdoor life and remember who got them into it and did the heavy lifting while they were to small.

Working until you are hot and tired and about ready to drop makes the pain all worth it, it when you wake up in the morning and feel that way before you lift a finger, well that makes you wonder.

 

[Professor]

...But out of long-standing curiousity, I did his Standard Course in September of '07.

One of the interesting things I remember him saying was that, during the most memorable moments of your life, you more than likely were not very comfortable. Like being in the woods with the bare essentials rather than packing half your house and taking it with you. Some of the most memorable times for me on the AT were when going ultralight and more or less sleeping out in the open.

To each his own, but you may just agree!

Professor.

 

[Marcelo Cantu]

Interesting topic. I'm sure it's been said many ways; "There is no glory in victory without struggle". I think the pain or struggle in this respect is not a stand-alone state of mind or being. It is through this struggle that men find out who they are.

I've met many adults in my life who do not know how to really struggle through challenges. Consequently they don't know the taste of true success. Instead they wallow in excuses and complaints and get fat on material chaff. Being handed the fruits without enduring the labors is spritually deficient in nutrients.

 

[siguy]

Check out "UlltraMarathon Man: Confessions of an All Night Runner" by Dean Karnazes. It deals with the philosophy you are discussing, and it's a good read besides. Very inspirational for me.

 

[Diomedes Industries]

I will do it Simon - thanks!

TF

 

[Bushman5]

Don't you think 42, that the homeless mans happiness is temporary in this case - and thus his happiness is fleeting. Making him not the happiest in the world?

Wouldn't what would make him happier is to work to have the means for food and shelter? This would be more long term and involve a pain that leads to pleasure instead of a pain like has when he is homeless?


TF


p.s. I am not claiming that homeless people simply need to work harder... just an example taking off from the post of 42.

nope, because he has done without for so long, that the SIMPLEST things in life bring the greatest pleasure, and in turn happiness.

I speak from experience.

 

[Diomedes Industries]

I think true happiness is one where you have minimized lifes anxieties - mostly through mental preparation - I just think a night in a bed would not make him truly happy.

TF

 

[bikermikearchery]

Camping in sunny southern California a buddy and I climbed to the 6000' elevation. Early archery Deer season. One blanket and a poncho, canteens, one canteen cup, and a coil of green line was my whole camp kit. Add longbows, arrows, a few knives, some jerky and a bag of cookies, that was every thing I carried.
Is snowed that night. Had to use every trick to stay warm enough to sleep. Made 3 fires arranged in a triangle with reflectors and slept in the middle of them. Hot rocks against the kidneys feet and hands to. awoke up about 30 minutes before sunrise made cowboy coffee, boiled cactus wild greens and jerky for breakfast. Saw the first buck against the morning sunrise. Much to far for a longbow shot, but what a picture. Had to stop stalking at about 8am to build a fire and dry my socks. jungle boots aren't so good in mushy snow. One cold night, but one grand memory.

 

[Mistwalker]

Far too much stress lately, most of the time of late when I hit the woods I dare any body to try to follow me...much less take anyone with me . I take my camera so I can share what I find out there but I don't get to go near often enough anymore to want to wreck it with the sounds of speech, or at least that of anyone here locally....for now I go for the peace, and the "silence" of nature and to get away from civilisation. Having spent so much of my young life living in the woods and earning my living there that now it takes these short trips just to keep me sane. I've yet to be able to tolerate watching anyone else make the fire....I swear I need different frien...um... acquaintances

 

[Rick Marchand]

I think happiness is relative. People sharing the same experience will have different interpretations. Insert hardship/suffering prior to it, and the outcome will be different. For one, the satisfying experience will be that much better... for another the hardship endured might take away from the payoff.

Its like that with everything. Talfuchre married his bride because in his eyes she was the most beautiful woman in the world. While to others, she may have a face that would make a train take a dirt road.

See..... relative.

Rick