for those of you who have made swords...

L

L.K.Smithy

Joined
May 22, 2007
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273
im getting ready to give it a try. i did my best to search for like posts using google to no avail, so im asking what i know has been asked...
any sword forums you would recommend reading in?

what do you think will be the biggest differences from making knives? as in what can i expect to go wrong or have trouble with that i havent encountered making knives?

i plan to hand forge to rough shape, using 5160, and an oil quench as i have done with great success on all my knives so far. then i need to find a bigger oven than the one in my kitchen, or i may use a propane torch/ hold it above my forge and temper as evenly as i can.

any thoughts are welcome, i love being able to tap all the knowledge here.:D
-Lou
 
Specific sword info can be gained at the Sword discussion forum ( click "general" at the top of this page and then scroll down to "Sword Discussion Group".

Also try Sword Forum International.
http://forums.swordforum.com/
There are a lot of places on SFI, but here is the main one for forging swords.
http://forums.swordforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=99

The obvious biggest differences in doing swords is the size. It is not a long knife, however. The heating of the bar while forging needs to be kept to the area being worked. The HT requires some thought and often compromises.A miscalculation or shortcut in the HT will end in a blade - count on it! Steel choice is much more important than with a knife. A 1095 hunting knife will probably work as good as a 1080, 5160, or even 440C knife. The same is not true in a sword.

Plan ahead and think the entire process out before you pick up steel and hammer.
Plan on spending a lot more time on a sword in the finishing.
Plan on having more frustration and failures.
Plan on being really,really proud of the ones you finish.
Plan on getting addicted.
Stacy
 
L.K.Smithy said:
im getting ready to give it a try. i did my best to search for like posts using google to no avail, so im asking what i know has been asked...
any sword forums you would recommend reading in?

what do you think will be the biggest differences from making knives? as in what can i expect to go wrong or have trouble with that i havent encountered making knives?

i plan to hand forge to rough shape, using 5160, and an oil quench as i have done with great success on all my knives so far. then i need to find a bigger oven than the one in my kitchen, or i may use a propane torch/ hold it above my forge and temper as evenly as i can.

any thoughts are welcome, i love being able to tap all the knowledge here.:D
-Lou
Click to expand...

Aside from a few points on working the metal and heat treatment, abandon everything you have used in knife design, a sword is not just a big knife. Very few knifemakers make the successful transition to swords because they believe that all they have to do is make a bigger knife, a sword is an entirely different beast altogether. Knifemakers wanting to make Excalibur is as ridiculous as an automaker wanting to make Noah's ark as the ultimate car. Recreating swords with a photo alone will only get you a sword shaped object, handle as many old pieces as you can. This is especially important if form following proper function is important to you, since despite what many mall ninjas will tell you there is no possible way for us to reconstruct form for real function of such a tool today without ending up on death row, and a whole lot of bad karma, and even then unarmed opponents will still only tell you half the story. So our best opportunity to understand these things is to meticulously study blades that were made when such activity was not just possible but a way of life.

One of the first things you will find is that the longer the blade the lighter it will have to be, you will be amazed at how much thinner and lighter real swords were than you may believe. For certain styles I have advised guys new to grinding them that they should grind, grind and grind until they think they have ruined the sword by going too thin... and then grind some more!

Ignore everything you ever got from Hollywood or even "educational" T.V. as far as information, since it is virtually all junk with no basis in reality.

Don't buy any of the garbage about secrets "super" steels in old swords that we cannot make today, if modern steels don't work on a sword it is because you chose the wrong steel for the application or most likely you are using techniques developed 1000 years ago on a 21st century alloy. Using today’s steels with today’s methods one can make a sword that would have been worth a Kings ransom in those days, but we really have to practical application for it today:(.

You will also be told that swords above 54HRC are useless due to brittleness, this is leftover medieval thinking from when the only way to gain toughness was to lower the hardness and sacrifice strength, and then tests done on old swords confirmed this range so it has to be correct... doesn't it? Today we understand and use alloying to improve levels in both areas, this is not to say that you want to treat a sword like a skinning knife and go for very high hardness since for the most part swords are cleavers not slicers and impact toughness must always be one of the chief concerns.

Keep things straight at all times. A blade over 24" will want to turn into a snake at every opportunity, don't give it more. When forging work things evenly and keep it straight and more importantly when grinding remove metal as evenly and straight as possible! It should go without saying that in heat treatment you MUST heat and cool as evenly as possible.

Learn the art of tapering- both distal and profile. It is the only way you are going to be able to control centers of gravity and mass that is essential in a proper sword. And- no! There are no set recipes for this, each individual user will have his own desired feel in a blade to match his techniques, you will only have general considerations to the overall use and then the fine tuning begins (e.g. the balance of a small sword versus a saber).
 
im glad to hear these things. not to seem big headed about this, but i have a pretty good idea of what a sword needs to be functional and well made. all that has been pointed out fits well with what i have in mind. i understand its not a knife, and will be a different kind of process. this is encouraging, i feel like im on the right track. thanks guys :)
one thing im considering is the temper, i know it will not be as hard as a knife, im thinking brown, bordering on blue temper color for the edges, and a full spring purple temper in the center (if i go with double edged, or spine if single edged). i am concerned about the different hardnesses flexing though. i would be safer with a uniform temper would i not?

any other thoughts are welcome, im getting very exited to start hammering this weekend!
-Lou
 
I wish I could help more, but all I ever do is forge em :D . My only advice is have fun! Lou, as Stacy and Kevin said it is not like making just a big knife, IT'S BETTER. Take your time and work slowly and carefully one section at a time nice and easy. Don't try to do too much in one heat take as many as you need and work both sides evenly (if you are forging). Good luck too, I personally feel this big huge ancient subconscience connection (with something, i don't know what hehe) when forging swords. The end result is so much more..... ahh Stacy said it best:


"Plan on being really,really proud of the ones you finish."
 
Those who have read my posts for a while have heard it before, but:
A knife maker should make 100 knives. And when you think you are pretty good at it , then make a sword. It will humble you.

There are few things that evoke a more thrilling feeling than the feel of a really good sword in the hand. It sings as it moves. It seems to anticipate your thoughts. I laugh at the Highland games when folks lug around 7 pound swords and grin about the "Big Sword" they possess. If opposed by a fast and light sword of proper HT and geometry they would be helpless.

Kevin said the truth about thinness and weight.The best swords I made I thought I over forged and ground down to ruin. With proper HT a modern sword does not need to be thick, or heavy. I have a 17th century Scottish blade ( a thin double edged small sword) that I can bend into a 90 degree arc, and have it flex right back like a spring. It is thin,tapered, and very flexible. The HT was obviously well done.

One other piece of advise is to start with a short sword. Something around a 16" blade is a good starting size.1.25" to 1.50" wide.

Here is an exercise I have used to teach making a simple ,small,double edged sword. Start with a 24" round bar of 5160,1060,or 1080, about 1/2-5/8" round.
Forge about 18" out into a tapered round bar ( it will get longer).
Start forging it into a diamond shape.
When the diamond is even and complete, start forging the diamond wider and flatter.
Continue to flatten the diamond ( keeping it even) until it is shaped to the blade profile you want. 16" to 18" long and 1" to 1.25" wide at the ricasso makes a nice blade ( It will be a little narrower after filing, so go a little past what you want).
Forge out the tang, making it longer than needed ( to allow for fitting the pommel and having extra to cut off and peen).
Draw file the bevels to clean them up.Hand finish to the degree desired prior to HT, but be sure all file marks are gone and the blade surface is smooth.
You can run a sword in and out of a shorter forge to bring it up to austenitizatuion temperature, but making some sort of longer forge or even a trench forge is a better way. (Hint: Putting two 16" forges back to back, with a K-wool gasket, makes a 32" forge)
Quench straight in, point first. Pull out after it has dropped near the Ms point and quickly straighten as needed.
Stacy
 
All I have to say is that if you want to add a bit more frustration to this equation then try to make a differentially heat treated sword like a katana out of an steel with a variable and many times unknown composition such as tamahagane and then quench it in water.

If you do that and you still want to make another one then welcome to the madness.
 
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