Forcible entry tools for BOB

Originally posted by bob bowie
Don Rearic slowly figered his M.I.T guide, and posted the following.
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Surely you jest. The MIT Guide to Lockpicking is a very good piece of material. I could write a better one, however. :)

Nothing wrong with skewing, if it give someone something to think about. Simply wanted to point out that you'll never know what you might face.
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No, you just have to be selective, just like a Locksmith is anyway. You don't think they pick Medeco, Kaba or Keso, eh? Get out the Drill Jig and the Black & Decker, or, find the weak link in the chain of security.

This I am tempted to disagree with. Ton's of S&G locks (both Combo and Keyed Medeco cylinder) are making their way to the surplus market. So, I think in the comming years, you'll see more of them.
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You might very well indeed, however, there are probably not going to be that prolific because they are still quite expensive, even as surplus.

Alright, then we need to define what a "SHTF" situation is. I think that term is way over used.

To me, you need to concern yourself with basic stuff like first-aid, natural disaster survival, basic woodcraft, etc...
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You're right there. But I don't fault people for going beyond the norm.

Originally posted by beezaur
Then suppose someone is in desparate need of something medical that is known to be kept in some locked building, maybe a pharmacy. Or maybe some old person needs to be evacuated from their home, but all the doors are blocked by a debris flow and emergency services are unavailable. Or maybe you are fleeing a forest fire and you come to a gate, the type that is built from huge I-beams and structural tubing.

These are the kinds of things I am imagining.

Scott
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Scott,

The Red Cross actually has in-place plans for replacement of emergency medication, as Hurricane/TS Isabel has shown.

Could situations be worse than that? A truly, incredibly dangerous event that would preclude that? I imagine so. But, consider this...

If that happened, all of the Oxycontin junkies would have already looted the pharmacy and probably stomped the antibiotics to dust anyway. Also, in order for you to be able to do this sort of thing, assuming you could get in and they could not, they are going to be in the area, you'd have to fight off the junkers to get in anyway. All of that is with this assumption that "The Blue Flu" has hit and you would not be shot anyway trying to do something like this.

Like I said, I primarily look at this as a means for shelter, more than anything else.

Originally posted by SkarpKniv
is there a quality difference between lock pick sets? If so which names are at the top of your lists?
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Rytan picks with HPC heavy/rigid turning tools. First choice. ;)
 
Don Rearic summoned the spirit of Mel Tappan, while thinking "Does this lock picking belt buckle go with these pants:D?", and posted:


You don't think they pick Medeco, Kaba or Keso, eh? Get out the Drill Jig and the Black & Decker, or, find the weak link in the chain of security.

Yep, I know they can be picked, but I just remember what our old local 'smith use to say: "I can sit and pick all day, and you can pay. Or I can drill and be on my way."

I just think people sometimes get to wrapped up in their gear(I do too, sometimes), that they forgot that there might be a simple way to do things.

For every person that learns how to pick, they'll be more than a few that buy a set, pick a few cheap locks, and toss them in their "go" bag, without expierencing a complicated lock. I'm thinking of them.

Just trying to get them to see all the angles, including the simple ones.


You're right there. But I don't fault people for going beyond the norm.

Yeah, I try not to either, but I've got a litte bit of a dismissive streak. I thnk it comes from my usenet days when you'd see all types of things.

Forgive me:).


If that happened, all of the Oxycontin junkies would have already looted the pharmacy and probably stomped the antibiotics to dust anyway.

Good thinking. Sadly, the 'fiends have become such a part of life, that you sometimes forget about them.


P.S., Don, If I'm ever attacked by a Rabid lock, you think it would let go if I jammed my thumb into its key way?

Sorry for the inside joke everyone:).
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Here is my expectation of (armed) guarded goods:

I would knock first. Any armed inhabitants surely would try to find out who I was and either turn me away or help me. I suppose you could get shot doing that, but it isn't very likely.

As to the Red Cross, etc., I don't have that much faith in things like that. I agree that those plans are very well laid out, but such services almost always get overloaded during a time of need.

A small example:

In 1996, I lived at a fire station with one roommate. (We pulled fire/EMT duty in exchange for free rent.) It flooded that winter, pretty badly. For about 36 hours my station was isolated from other emergency services. During that time, fire services in my area literally consisted of about half a dozen guys, one engine, one aid car, and a water truck. No more. That kind of thin spread service is pretty common in such minor emergencies, and even more so in big ones.

So I don't think it is that unreasonable to expect to have to do for one's self. But I don't live in a major population center, either.

Scott
 
Don Rearic summoned the spirit of Mel Tappan, while thinking "Does this lock picking belt buckle go with these pants?", and posted:
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I don't channel anything, I leave that to Ninjas. :)

"You don't think they pick Medeco, Kaba or Keso, eh? Get out the Drill Jig and the Black & Decker, or, find the weak link in the chain of security."

Yep, I know they can be picked, but I just remember what our old local 'smith use to say: "I can sit and pick all day, and you can pay. Or I can drill and be on my way."
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My point was not to say that they can or should be picked at all. My point was, you can spend a month on a Medeco and never pick it. Locksmiths don't pick these things, they find an easier way in because even drilling them, in reality, is no fun because they have hardened, floating steel inserts in them to crank bits.

For every person that learns how to pick, they'll be more than a few that buy a set, pick a few cheap locks, and toss them in their "go" bag, without expierencing a complicated lock. I'm thinking of them.
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Some people on this medium are so arrogant (or goofy) they won't even do that, they think it's "easy" so they will just put them in there thinking they will be able to do it when they have to.

P.S., Don, If I'm ever attacked by a Rabid lock, you think it would let go if I jammed my thumb into its key way?
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Canadians are very funny, and apparently a race of people, according to other rocket scientists in other places. :)
 
To answer the question as posed in the original post:
14" Gorilla Bar, about $8 at Home Depot. Not particularly lightweight to carry, but strong enough for most evac work I would anticipate for it.

I picked the Gorilla over the other prybar tools for the very "square to the shaft" configuration of the prying head and the beefier-appearing handle. I've got some Wonderbars and can flex the shaft when yarding on them. I can't imagine being able to do that to the oval shaft of the Gorilla Bar. If I could swallow the price, a 19-24" titanium Haligan/Hooligan bar would be my tool of choice. :cool:

FWIW, my situation is a suburban residential location trying to maintain control of my own home & resources. I figure in a real SHTF scenario (extended multi-day civil disarray) organizing the neighbors into effective teams for security, communications, food & water, shelter, and coordination with whatever federal/state/local help that may become available will prove to be more of a consideration than getting in/out of typically lightly-secured buildings. YMMV.
 
If it's TSHTF and I'm near the truck, I'm going to have a small Oxy-acetyline torch. That takes care of most locks. 20 years or so ago, I knew a guy (from "the streets") who used to have access to C-4. That's ONE way to get the door open. In today's day and age, I think THAT would get you a trip to Gitmo
 
Since you guys are on the subject already, whats a good cost effective, high security pad lock, like for a storage unit? My current storage has two doors, each with their own lock. One is a disc style that I don't know the brand of and the key is unlabeled. The other is a large conventional style pad lock, made by a company called Diamond. The key to this one has very deep and different grooves than any of my other keys. I think its a Chinese or Japanese company.

This discussion just brought it to mind and I realized that I have lots of valuables in there that I don't want to entrust to junk locks.

Mark
 
Mark,

Abus was the first to make the Diskus lock which basically has no access for bolt cutters. Any manufacturer that may have copied it might not have done as well as Abus. They also have mushroom pins in the top position and a rather convoluted keyway, either of which makes them difficult to manipulate with pick and wrench. Not impossible, but a bitch. Together they make it even more pick-resistant. The keyway will be upside down because of the shackle orientation as well...increasing the pain in the ass. Good lock, IF, if it is an Abus and marked as such.

Another good lock for stand alone situations like a storage shed is the American Lock Co. lock but it won't fit ALL hasps, so you have to check that out. There is NO, I mean ZERO exposure of the shackle and they are an absolute BITCH to pick as they have spool tumblers up top and the lower pins are serrated.

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You don't see a shackle, do you? You place this big thing on the hasp and then turn the key and it's on. There is hardly any access at all for pick and wrench either.
 
There's a Sargent & Greenleaf Mil. lock on Ebay(#2195098897), if you want to take a look. The American looks great though:).
 
Thanks guys, for all the great replies.

This is just a follow-up describing what I have purchased for my BOB. I opted for a hacksaw and a firefighting/rescue tool.

The hacksaw is the regular kind, but I also got two round blades for it, which will cut hardened metal, glass, and just about anything else. $10 at the hardware store.

The rescue tool is a Paratech Biel Tool. I used to use its big brother, Paratech's Pry Axe, when I was in a more municipal fire department. Not much you can't get through with either of these, but the Biel is half the weight (3.3 lbs) and a little shorter (15" closed). $140 at www.galls.com -- check Paratech's page:

http://www.paratech-inc.com/ForcibleEntry.asp

Scott

PS: Here is a link for the Biel Tool brochure: http://www.paratech-inc.com/pdfs/BIEL TOOL.pdf
 
I have a small prybar in my student backpack that achompanies me at work. I also just got a prybaby! I keep it in my pocket.
 
Center punch...

Drift...

Mini-sledge.

Chisel

Fine metal file!

I think, just maybe... that I could get into most anything wit the above!

If a door is deadbolted, into a wooden door frame... Well, go for the door frame.

If heaven forbid, somebody puts the pins on the OUTSIDE of the building, theres another way to open one up.

I'm not much for lock picks, but the casing on most of the locks I have seen, arent worth much! Probably wont get ya into fort knox, but a garage... out building, or barn!

:D
 
Don Rearic said:
Mark,

Abus was the first to make the Diskus lock which basically has no access for bolt cutters. Any manufacturer that may have copied it might not have done as well as Abus. They also have mushroom pins in the top position and a rather convoluted keyway, either of which makes them difficult to manipulate with pick and wrench. Not impossible, but a bitch. Together they make it even more pick-resistant. The keyway will be upside down because of the shackle orientation as well...increasing the pain in the ass. Good lock, IF, if it is an Abus and marked as such.

Another good lock for stand alone situations like a storage shed is the American Lock Co. lock but it won't fit ALL hasps, so you have to check that out. There is NO, I mean ZERO exposure of the shackle and they are an absolute BITCH to pick as they have spool tumblers up top and the lower pins are serrated.

2000.jpg


You don't see a shackle, do you? You place this big thing on the hasp and then turn the key and it's on. There is hardly any access at all for pick and wrench either.
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How about a center punch and a decent carbide drill bit?

:confused:
 
I agree with the American Lock "turtle shell" suggestion. Look for other ones from Master Pro Series, New Standard (if they are still around) and American Lock; get the ones with ball bearing locking mechanisms only. If you have clearance, go for the models with the shackle shields. Get a heavy duty hasp Abus used to make some good ones. Get good hinges and reinforce the framework.

Remember that you have to prevent having a weak link in your security. What is the use of having a big bad lock if you have a weak hasp or a rotten door?

Go and see a reputable locksmith for suggestions. They will be able to assess the security situation for your storage units. Dont be afraid to spend money, how much is in the storage units? How much are you willing to spend for a good nights sleep and peace of mind? I've seen padlocks close to a hundred bucks!
 
regarding the carrying of lockpicks. If you are allowed to in your area, go for it. You must maintain it as any other skill, which means regular practice. As a locksmith I felt I could pick better if I was relaxed and not rushed. When the customer was waiting there, or if in a rush it would usually take me a bit more time. If I was by myself with a clear head or sometimes daydreaming, the lock would just pop open :D Try doing it in the dark or the rain, lots of fun. :rolleyes:

As for what brands to get, try them all out. Lockpicking is all by feel. The one that I like is by HPC with the SS handles. Get a bunch, you will wear them out.

the modifed winshield wiper for a pick is a good one. :p Old cheap steak knife works too. I've used a safety pin and a screwdriver in a pinch.
 
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