Forge burner trial program...good idea or bad?

D

Darren Ellis

Joined
Sep 14, 2002
Messages
992
Hi guys, want to run this past everyone to see if they thinks it's a good idea and how I should do it.

I've been thinking about making a couple of burners available for new guys (or olds guys too!) to try out so they can see the benefits of a decent burner system compared to something like small propane torches that people sometimes buy when they're just getting started...you know, so someone can try a good one and decide if they want to spend the additional money up front. My thoughts are that it might save some people money in the long run by not spending money on little torches that they won't be happy with for very long (i.e., Bernzomatic jth7, etc.)

Is this a good idea, would there be any interest in it? If so I need to figure out how to do it and be covered so I don't loose money...after several $200+ orders not being paid for in the past year I'm a bit nervous sometimes about the net 30 days invoicing system for people I haven't dealt with before. So, if I do this, I guess I should charge a deposit? Anyway, what do you guys think?

I've got some more questions, but let me see if there's any interest in this kind of thing or not. I could start with Venturi burners, and do Forced-Air burners too if that seems to be working out...

:)

-Darren
 
Sounds like a good idea as long as you charge a security deposit. Then refund them the money if they don't want it and send it back.
 
From the standpoint of helping folks understand the value of a good burner I think it's a great idea. I happened to be smart and just buy from you the first time out, so I'm spoiled. :D Having seen and heard what other folks go through with burners though I could see this being a real eye opener for a lot of people.

Now, let me put on my "business guy" hat for a second. I understand that aside from being a good deed, it's obviously a marketing tool for you as well. There are costs incurred to you in offering a program like this, not least of which are just the shipping expenses and time you spend running it. The idea of a deposit is a good one. I would however submit to you that if a person sends you a deposit in order to "borrow" a burner, you've effectively made them pay for it to try it out. If they like it, then do they order another one from you so that your "demo unit" can run along to the next guy? Seems like extra, un-needed logistics to me.

How about a special program for new folks that just makes it a "30 day open return policy" or something? Same effect, less policy. If you buy it and like it, you'll want to keep it. If you don't like it, send it back, get a refund. Having the expiry time on the return offer keeps you from having to shell back out $$ 6 months down the road after the burner has been used a potentially great deal.

Either way, as someone who has seen the light of a good forced air burner from Ellis Custom Knifeworks, I think it's a great idea to get good burners into the hands of more people. My $.02 above is just my take on making a good thing as easy as possible.

-d
 
While i think that would be a great idea... I'm not sure how it could be done without getting occasionally burnt by dishonest folks. I mean i certainly know that using IG's forge for forge welding directly influenced the ongoing building of a new forge with the same style blown burner

burner.jpg


(yes, i need to buy a regulator, a 1/4 propane hose, and some refractory supplies from you soon Darren!)

It almost seems that it'd be better to hold localized gatherings with people demonstrating their venturi and blown burner forges for different applications where newcommers (and old alike) can see them in use, and then not have the risk of disappearing merchandise.
 
Hi Darren, Sorry to hear some folks Just can't deal straight up with you. It could be a huge service for someone who's truely interested. That type of person wouldn't mind a deposit and shipping both ways for the learning experience. In the past, when I've picked up stuff from you, I always appreciated the 'tech support'. Take care, Craig
 
Hey Darren,
I think some kind of deposit is a good idea... or as stated elsewhere a good return policy....
Sorry to hear about the folks not paying..... pretty much the lowest scum who take advantage like that..... well.. what goes around comes around eventually....
I certainly appreciate all you've done for me and the many times you've literally gone out of your way for me.....

Thanks.... Craig
 
i think its a great idea. go with simple designs that will bring in a good profit. i think the IG burner is one that you should market. also if someone wants to see the difference between the two you could have video clips on your site to demonstrate the difference between the two and to talk about any advantages or disadvantages and the application uses for each style. the clips dont have to be very big. just of you or someone lighting the burner and showing quickly how it works and then list each of the above items as the description for the burner. im sure your site builder can help you with that or one of us geeks could help too. speaking of geeks, i havent been able to find that thing you asked me to look for.
 
I think a deposit system (even so far as full payment, with either all of it refundable if they buy one from you, or 3/4 refundable if they don't) would be both a fair and safe system for you.

Charles
 
I actually like Deker's idea. Then Darren could sell the returned burners as used at a discounted price. Then maybe I could afford a burner instead of the benzomatic thing I use.
 
Darren, i have and still use one of those Bernzomatic jth7 :D are you going to be selling any type of put it together yourself burner kits? Hopefully with the the tips already set in its adapter ( that was the hardest part for me to get right). Are you going to be going to the Trackrock Hammerin in March?
 
CShepherd said:
I think a deposit system (even so far as full payment, with either all of it refundable if they buy one from you, or 3/4 refundable if they don't) would be both a fair and safe system for you.

Charles
Click to expand...

great idea. but actually if they want to buy one from him they can just buy the one they are using so that darren doesnt have to sell too many used ones at the discounted price.
 
Hi Darren,

Since I went the mapp gas burner upgraded to an Ellis forced air burner path I think it's a great idea and really I'd be suprised if you had may returns. Maybe just a good return policy instead of the trial program is the way to go if someone really dosen't like the burner you refund their money, but money is up front.

Tim
 
Hi Guys, these are all great suggestions and exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for. Kathryn and I are going to mull this over for a week or so to pin down details, and I think we'll proceed with this with the Venturi burners to start off with...we can ship those in a USPS Flat Rate box, so shipping would be reasonable. The Forced-Air burners are heavier with the heavy duty $100 blowers I put on them, so I'll have to figure that one out. Thanks again, and if anyone has any other suggestions, I would love to hear them!

:)

-Darren
 
Hi Darren
I think you'd be doing people a big favor letting them try a burner, but I see it ended up poorly for you in the long run.

The trouble with it is that the burner isn't the difficult part to come up with. You know very well how easy they are to make out of simple plumbing parts, and that they don't cost a whole lot to put together. The real money is in getting a proper regulator, hose and tank all set up. I don't see anyone that already has a regulator and tank not already having a burner, and I don't see folks be interested in a trial run on a burner if they have to buy a tank and regulator.
If you have to include a regulator with the burner that is going to increase your expense quite a bit, which will make it a lot worse when some jerk takes advantage of you.
I can also see issues with shipping a regulator and burner all over the place, and having to worry about broken gauges or loose fittings every time it goes out or comes back in.

Its a nice idea, but I think it would be a lot of trouble for you in the long run.
 
Terry_Dodson said:
Darren, i have and still use one of those Bernzomatic jth7 :D are you going to be selling any type of put it together yourself burner kits? Hopefully with the the tips already set in its adapter ( that was the hardest part for me to get right). Are you going to be going to the Trackrock Hammerin in March?
Click to expand...

Hi Terry,

We have been carrying both Forced-Air burner kits as well as Venturi burner kits on our site for a while now. We currently don't have the venturi kits set up with the orifice tube drilled and tapped, that's part of the job for the user to do while putting the kit together, but I have been doing that for people for a small charge if they ask. The Venturi burner kits come with an 18 page step-by-step set of assembly instructions that I have recently finished the final revision on. it's very detailed with pictured steps and descriptions of how to assemble the burner.

I would love to come to Trackrock (if I could fit it in my schedule), but last year they changed it so that I would either have to pay to attend or join the guild down there...and since I don't live anywhere near Ga, I really wouldn't use my Guild membership, and I just don't want to spend the money. Vendors should be like demonstrators at events (i.e., free admittance) as we have to pack up and haul a large amount of supplies a long distance to attend an event, spend the weekend manning the table, and thus don't really get to attend much at the event, and then have the work of packing up and carting most of the stuff back. The amount of money made at a typical event, doesn't typically cover the amount of money lost in travel costs and lost shop time unfortunately. The exceptions to this are the Blade show and Batson's hammer-in....those are pretty much break even or small profit events for us. So that's a long way of saying that I would love to go if I could fit it into my schedule, but I haven't looked at when the dates are set for and if they would even work for us.

:)

-Darren
 
i just thought of something. instead of having a trial period or anything like that why not just have an option for the customer to have you completely assemble the burner for a small fee and if they want to see what they are like and how they work before they buy, have a vew videos of each burner in action and have a detailed description of how each one works and the applications of each type as well as advantages and disadvantages of each unit. also show customer feedback and customer descriptions as how the burner works written alongside or underneath a photo of their forge in action. no money loss this way or any headaches either. help make your job stress free.
 
Darren, There is one other thing you need to do before you proceed on this. You need to talk to your business attorney and see about the liability issues. I know your burners are good, but you will have no control over how they are used (or misused) . Sadly, in this day and age, if some fool turns the gas on and then goes to look for his Bic.......well you know! (I am married to a lawyer, can't you tell!)
A disclaimer will help, but we all remember the Mcdonald's suit. Who would have ever thought that coffee would be hot????
Stacy
 
Darren
I would respectfully like to correct you on your statement about the Trackrock Hammer-in events, as I would be the "they" you have refered to.
This particular incident occurred one time 3 years ago, when the Georgia Custom Knifemakers' Guild graciously helped me sponsor and conduct the hammer-in for that one spring event. I sent you a rather extensive explanation about the special circumstances concerning that one event. I have extended an invitation to you for every event since that particular one.
Now if you have difficulty differentiating between that event and all the rest of the events held, I apologize. However I do feel I articulate and communicate quite well and do not believe I left any room for misunderstanding.
As far as not being able to enjoy or participate in the activities of the hammer-in, that is your choice and decision no one elses. Own it.

If you feel that the trip and the event would not be worth it to you on a business level, I completely understand. Say it and let it stand. Step off the soap box.

We don't charge at Trackrock and you have been invited. You haven't been asked to set up the hammer-in, schedule the activities, the lunch, clean up the aftermath, advertise, promote or in any other way be involved in any of the work up front or behind the scenes that it takes to orchestrate such an event.
You only stand to gain customers and do business with a concentrated group of folks that are there to observe and/or participate in activities directly related to the wares you sell. Very much like shooting fish in a barrel, and yet............
As far as distance to and from, unpacking and packing equipment and supplies, 85% of the Trackrockers travel a good bit farther than you would and we all have to unpack and pack. You know, I have never had a problem with this as we all help each other.
Please know that you are still welcome to attend, set a table and hawk your wares, pick up a hammer show your stuff, or just pull up a chair and fellowhip with a lot of very fine people, most already repeat customers of yours.

Respectfully,
Carl Rechsteiner, Bladesmith
President and Charter Member of the Georgia Custom Knifemakers' Guild
and Boss of F.O.O.S.R.K.
 
LOL, you've got to love the internet, it's so easy for misunderstandings to occur and this is exactly one of the reasons that I don't post as much as I once did, too many people get offended too easily, when there was no intention to do so. We're good Carl. No, it wasn't clear that after that time you told me that there would be a "charge" that there would no longer be one. Yes, I value the fellowship and friendship of many of the people who attend Trackrock, so don't try to read anything otherwise into it. We're all friends, you've just clearly taken some offense here when there was none meant. Contact me off-line if you'd like to discuss this further.

:)

please notice the smiley...

-Darren
 
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