Forge Welding Temps?? pics added, more to come

A C Richards

A C Richards

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Apr 14, 2006
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I thought it might be interesting to find out what temps we are all using to forge weld. I was brought up old school and the hotter the better. I would not consider even starting welding until the forge was warmed up to 2350F+. BUT I have been having problems with random pattern. I did a billet last year just for fun and it turned out "muddy". I define muddy as no pattern/layer definition for the layer count welded to. I had an order recently and the same result. SO I decided to take a look at my temperatures.

So let me set up my process. I made a billet of 1095/15N20 19 layers. Billet was 1.5 wide and 6.5" long. I do the dry welding process and have had great results. I took the billet to 226 layers. I have made many mosaic and other patterns, ie ladder and twists W's and feathers with great outcomes. But when it came to the random it just would not turnout right. I have done a few experiments on my own and have had some very interesting results. But first I wanted to hear what the general consensus was here.

Thanks in advance for your participation.
 
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Just my thought here Chuck, I don't think it is a problem with your steel or forge welding temps but maybe rather a technique problem since I have seen you work and your other pattern welding looks good.

Do you have any pictures?

What I think you maybe having trouble with is your forging billets to flat and even with that little press of yours which will make your billets look like low layer count billets not showing many layers. What I do is I really beat my billet up with hammer blows, using various fullers and even hitting it with the grinder especially in the first weld up to get as much movement in layers as I can. If I hit it with the grinder to make some divots I will forge those flat. Also I have found starting with a lower layer count helps too as this will get more folds to get your layer count.

Hope that helps.
 
Actually I am getting great flow. The layers that are showing give lots of pattern, it's the some layers in between. I do have some pictures and will be posting them tomorrow. I did do a billet that I forged very flat and I get what you are saying. It is actually the first straight pattern I have ever done. I am just wondering what ya'll are doing.
 
OK,

Here are some shots of the muddy blade.

DSC_0060.jpg


DSC_0062.jpg


DSC_0063.jpg


I can see where the layers are there but just not really clear. You can also see where the layers a very distinct. So I have been at a loss.
 
Chuck,

That sure looks like it was over heated to me, were you using your thermocouple while forging this? If so what temp was it at? Last time I saw something like this I had someone distract me while using my coal forge and almost melted the blade.
 
Yep, used the TC. Never went above 2450f. Welded many billets that hot before with no problems, just not a random. It does not make sense to me why a more intricate pattern will turn out but not the random.
 
I would drop your temp by 100 degrees and make another billet and see if your problem improves. What did your billet look like when you pulled it? If sparking or near white your definitely to hot.
 
Not sparking but bright light yellow. This was a big billet too. I found that it probably happened more in the forging to shape. But I was always taught to keep it at forge welding temps while bringing it to shape. This is why I wanted to start a conversation regarding this. I am finding temps make a huge difference. I did not think it would but it does.
 
I have had the same results the "old" way. The biggest problem with wet welding is the silver lines that occure when everything is not perfect.

I have spent the las few days working on this problem. I first took a piece of the muddy violet and forged a new blade. Since I had thought I may have o we heated the other blades I made sure I kept this one below 2250.

I then made up a new bullet, though not as large, using the same materials. It was only 9 layers though. I forged this one using the dry technique also. This one I adjusted the temp to no more than 2250f also.

Any thoughts as to the outcome ?
 
Not sure of the result of the smaller nine layer billet but to fairly make a comparison I think it would be a good idea to do a nine layer billet at the higher heat of 2450 as well. It is my guess this to billets will be the same in contrast.
 
Ok, Here are some pictures of the continuing project.

First I took a piece off the original billet but forged it to shape at or below 2250f.

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I did a fast 800grit polish and quick etch but the pattern looks a little better but still diffuse and not acceptable.

The next photo is of the 9 layer billet taken to 243 layers but forged fully at or below 2250f. The previous billet was forged at 2350-2450f.

DSC_0065.jpg


This one turned out much better. The definition of the layers is easily seen even on the very fine layers at the edge of the blade. The larger gaps are just a part of the pattern and it can be seen there are no layers in these areas.

Now since I was doing this as an experiment and had a piece of the first weld of the 9 layer still laying there, I decided to do something really drastic.

First here is the picture.

DSC_0066.jpg


The pattern definition is much more defined. Very crisp delineations. Though the pattern was not disrupted as much thus giving a more straight look. Now for the kicker, I forged this one at 2000f. The hottest it got was 2034f on the TC but only once and for a very short time. All forging to shape was also done at the lower 2000f temps. This billet did have a fatal flaw on the other side. A delamination but I could have prevented this if I had milled or surface ground the billet before the final weld. Though I do not intend to use this low a temp I just proved to myself it can be done with the dry welding process.

So what did I come away with from all this. At least for me, control of the temperature is important. Though this is only one attempt, I will be using a much lower temp for my forge welding than in the past. I do not see myself going much over 2250f.
 
A question Chuck,

Is there a chance your TC is off?

I assume with all the thousands and thousands of heats you've done you must have a good eye for the temp. Just my total guess.

But, are you getting clean crisp layers with your patterns like your feather still? Meaning a pattern other than random in the last few days?

I really appreciate you taking the time to post this.
 
Brian, There is a possibility it could be off but not by much. Checking with tempil sticks and non magnetic point are all within 5deg. So I can say it is pretty darn close. It is interesting I really only had this problem with the random pattern and it has happened more than once. Then when Ed Caffrey mentioned he had the same problem while we were talking at the Boise show it got me to thinking. I really think once you get past the 150-200 layer point the the definition becomes more important. So a clean crisp line will always be needed. Thinking back to one of my Golok projects, I had the same issue. That was a pool and eye pattern but very similar to random. I just found it interesting how low I could go and still get good welds. I could probably go a bit lower still but do not see any need.
 
So in effect, are you saying at higher layer counts, and higher temps you get alloy migration between the 15N20 and 1095? Keeping the temps lower still gets a good weld, but isn't as likely to allow alloys to move.
Does the length of the soak time Beyond allowing the billet to fully heat throughout make a difference? At any welding temp?
 
Yes that is what I am saying. You put much more eloquently. I do not feel the soak time beyond temp equalization is necessary or even desired. It will just cause excessive carbon loss. Once the molecules begin having their party the weld will take. But the cleaner, flatter, and smoother the surface is the easier it is to weld. If I want absolutely perfect low temp welds, like with intricate mosaics, I will go as far as surface grinding the individual parts before assembly.
 
Has anyone one tried dry forge welding in an evenheat? Mine goes up to 2200. I am thinking more san mai, not damascus.
 
Atmosphere would be your problem in an electric oven. If you did dry welding it could work. If you are thinking about stainless then I am not sure. For ss san mai most are taking it to 2500f. It is very easy to set up a small forge that would be able to weld.
 
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