Forge Welding

Joined
Jan 16, 2003
Messages
13
Will Brazing Flux Work For Forge Welding?
I have tryed 20 mule team boraxe wich was recomended and i have been un able to get a weld.
i have cleaned all surfaces and heated properly (so i Believe)and Hammered the middle first then the edges but have yet to geta weld.
 
Dont know. The borax should work.
Your not getting a weld has very little to do with flux type, and more to do with heat and techniques.

Joe Renner
 
What steel are you useing? I have heard that you cant' weld free machining steels, and also the more chrome in the steel the higher the heat you need.

Untill I got a little hands on I was thinking I needed a special flux, but like Joe said, Borax will work fine. One thing, I havn't seen it, but there is also something called Borax-o, and I've heard it won't work for forge welding. I use 20 Mule Team Borax from Walmart.

The way I learned to forge weld was to put a piece of steel in the forge, get saure and put anougther piece on top of it, get it to welding heat and weld together, then add anouther and so on till you have a billit. A little more work than haveing a precut stack, but you quikly learn what to look for in welding. It will also show you that little or no force is required to weld, if the temp is right the piece you added will weld to the base on it's own, the only reason to hammer is to get all of the two pieces in contact.

The color looks yellow to me and has a runny butter look to it.

Hope this helps
 
the steel is 5160 i have ground the surfaces clean of all rust and of all oils and chemicals. the borax i use is twenty mule team and does it have to be anheadris? i have also gotten the steel nice and buttery looking and with good flux penatration and when i hammer it it squirts all over like i have read it should starting with the center then to the edges. and still no weld.
 
Heat(grab a test peice of whatever your welding, 5160 you said) some to the point of having the steel start to spark(carbon burning) use this for reference, a little before the sparking happens is welding temp.
Anhydrous just means its dryer, been baked. Once you throw it on the steel and in the forge its plenty dry anyway :)

You might be hammering too hard, to get the initial weld use taps, once its welded increase the blow strength and draw out the billet. Hitting hard to start can seperate rather than fuse.

Forge welding is rather simple, once youve gotten the basics learned, and feel comfortable with them.
 
Are you trying to weld 5160 to 5160? 5160 and 52100 are two steels that require a little more heat than say 1095. Sometimes I think I got it, and other times it'll pop loose.

Are you useing gas or coal? Never welded with coal, but on gas you want a slightly reduceing atomospher. To much air and you scale and poor or no welds, to much fuel and you get poor or no welds.

Also might want to try a little longer at temp. One thing you might also try is the coat hanger trick. Stick a coat hanger wire in the forge, and when it'll stick to your billit your at welding heat.
 
Which type of forge you use to get welding heat?
I have just a couple of venturi burners for a coffee can forge or one-brick forge. I guess you need additional air blowing for welding.
I'd like to try my hand at it, but I guess I've not the proper equipment.

As for the welding, I read somewhere somebody saying someting on this line: "For it to weld, the primary requisite is that you BELIEVE it's going to weld". :)
 
I use borax and it normally welds fine. Today I had a session at a mates house for some reason, (we had opinions but I will not confuse the issue with them) it just would not stick.

I started with a 9 stack folled to 18, folded to 54, folded to get up to 162, but one layer just kept seperating.

I normally would say it was not hot enough. Or it needs to soak up the heat a bit longer.

Sometimes it just goes wrong.

Moral of the story is keep at it. Try the heat thing, try getting a bit of mild steel from the hardware shop for a couple of dollars. Have a go at that once you get it to weld the first time you will not look back. Purhaps once in a while if you have a day like me. I made 3 billets tuesday no problems.
 
Greeting's All !! Here is How I Weld in the Forge !! First Clean the Crap out of the Base Steel !! All "Scale" Must Be Removed !! Second Stack it , Third is Arc Weld 3 Lines Across one End of The Billet and Wire the Back , Heat to Absolute Orange / Yellow / Flux , Throw a Piece of Scrap into the Forge for a Stick Test When the Scrap Stick's to the Billet the Temp is Correct !! I Usually Pound the Welded End First Lightly Until i feel it Compress then Work to the Back !! Only a Couple of "Tap's " as Said Above then Back in the Fire !!
If you Try too Fast to Weld the Billet you will have a Problem !!
Take it Slow it Will Happen !!
Good Luck to you !!:D





http://www.pinoyknife.com
 
Steels that weld will dang near weld themselves when the conditions are correct. All the smith is really doing is getting the steels to the correct conditions then seeing to it that they come in contact so they will weld to each other. 5160 is not a real good choice for this, it is hard to weld because of the alloy elements; it is seldom seen in any pattern welded steel. 1084/15N20, 1095/L6 or 15N20, O-1/L6 are good combos because of hardening temps being similar. One can also use a hardenable steel and a mild steel like 1018. This is actually closer to ancient damascus mixing a hardenable steel for edge characteristics and a mild steel for strength.

One of the best tricks to use is to glance occasionally at the billet in the forge. When the flux starts to bubble vigorously, it is at welding temp. Heat the steel to red, flux, return to forge and bring to welding temp. When flux is boiling, remove and tap as you've stated.
When folding, heat to temp while fluxed. Remove from forge and scrub surface with a steel brush. Flux. Immediately fold over, re-flux, and return to forge. When flux boils, remove and tap-weld.

Good luck, hope this makes sense! I know what to do, but can't always convey it in words.
 
These guys are giving you good advice.

One thing too is to slow the blast down on the billet. Let the billet heat slow, that way the interior has a chance to come up to the temp of the exterior. The billet should look like it is all one color and sorta translucent looking.

I like carfeul blows with an eight lb hammer to get it "stuck"

If you use to much blast the outside gets to welding temp, but the inner layers are still to cold.

3 parts twenty mule team to one part boric acid helps too.

Like they said 5160 is not that easy to weld. But if you have the patience...

my .02

Why are you welding 5160 to 5160? Is it new or truck springs?
 
Dang, Sweany, how the hell big is yer arm? You got some strength there... the upper body on pictures of traditional smiths shows the great strength they developed. I thought you keep telling us yer getting old.. I use a little 800 gram hammer for welding. Sorta like a woodpecker, I guess!! This &^$*^%$ arthritis has made it tough to hold a bigger hammer for very long. Bill Buxton and Ron Duncan just built me a press, so hopefully I won't need that hammer near as much. This old crap is a two-edged sword: experience is offset by the ravages of time on a mis-used body. :)

Good advice about the soak... I forgot to mention that; the surfaces to be welded must be at the welding temp, not just the exterior.
 
I agree to all of this good advice. I use 1095 and 15n20, both steels are very forgiving of high heat. I probably work my damascus at too high og temps, but want to make sure I get good welds. My stack starts out as 17 layers that is 1.125 x 1.065 x 12. I don't weld the ends with a MIG, I just use bailing wire to hold everything together.

I bring it up to color, flux, bring to orange, flux, bring to lemon, count to 30 (let it soak), and set the welds with a 2 pound hammer. Usually when i am having trouble getting it all to stick it is either too low of a temperature or hitting too hard with the hammer.

I dont know anything about 5160, but it may be redshort so be sure you know the applicable temp range.

Plus, patience helps:)
 
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