Forged in Fire Tests

hank_rearden

hank_rearden

Joined
Jun 7, 2002
Messages
3,412
When D. Marcaida hits a pig's carcass with a long blade, the slow motion footage often shows the blade bending and undulating like a Chinese Wushu Sword. Is this a normal feature in a long blade, or does it indicate poor forging or design? Then again, it could mean poor deployment by the user. Which is it? (Nuts, title mispelled.)
 
I fixed the title for you.

If you use this BF Custom Search Engine and search "Forged in Fire" you will find many threads on the subject of how real the show is and the testing.
https://cse.google.com/cse/publicurl?cx=012217165931761871935:iqyc7cbzhci


I am sure I will get serious flack and probably some vitriolic emails for posting this reply to your question, but the below is my opinion.

I have coached three FIF contestants. They all had to make a sword. They knew the swords would be abused severely, so HT was done for max toughness and moderate hardness. The parameters for passing a FIF test are sort of like the ABS requirement on making a test knife that bends 90°. It isn't the best knife you could make, but shows the skills to make a knife/sword that will pass a test that would not be seen in normal use. In short, a beautiful screaming sharp Rc64 knife would fail miserably on FIF. A way too thick edged Rc58 ugly knife would pass well.

All that said, the handling of a sword by their martial arts expert DM usually shows what I would call poor handling. I have no doubt the DM knows how to swing a sword or knife, but the showmanship leads to poor movements and impacts. It is done for the camera and to make DM look like a cool ninja with a catch phrase - "Eet Weell Keel!". No disrespect to him, he is paid well for his performance, but I feel it is more a performance than a serious test.

On the episode Page Steinhardt won, his sword was so bad that it bent like it was made from taffy. The other sword was stuck against the target sideways and broke. Since Paige's sword was still intact, albeit severely bent, he won. In the case of another episode, it was brought up after shooting the final episode that DM had struck the target sideways with the loosing sword. Tapes were reviewed, and showed the winning sword hitting the target edge-on and the loosing sword hitting the target sideways. The producers said that was unfortunate, but the sword broke and there was no way to deal with the issue ... sorry.

It is my opinion that FIF isn't a real knife/sword making show, but a reality type show shot to create drama and suspense for the viewers. The contestants are real makers, just the camerawork, ridiculous sword shapes, crazy tests and materials, situations and locations for the smiths to work in, time restraints, and post production editing are all aimed to create a show with "WOW" effect that is not real.

Not part of your question, but I still wonder what they float on top of those barrels of quenchant to make that huge flash of fire. I have quenched knives and swords for 65 years in everything from motor oil to AAA and #50 and never seen that flash.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
I fixed the title for you.

If you use this BF Custom Search Engine and search "Forged in Fire" you will find many threads on the subject of how real the show is and the testing.
https://cse.google.com/cse/publicurl?cx=012217165931761871935:iqyc7cbzhci


I am sure I will get serious flack and probably some vitriolic emails for posting this reply to your question, but the below is my opinion.

I have coached three FIF contestants. They all had to make a sword. They knew the swords would be abused severely, so HT was done for max toughness and moderate hardness. The parameters for passing a FIF test are sort of like the ABS requirement on making a test knife that bends 90°. It isn't the best knife you could make, but shows the skills to make a knife/sword that will pass a test that would not be seen in normal use. In short, a beautiful screaming sharp Rc64 knife would fail miserably on FIF. A way too thick edged Rc58 ugly knife would pass well.

All that said, the handling of a sword by their martial arts expert DM usually shows what I would call poor handling. I have no doubt the DM knows how to swing a sword or knife, but the showmanship leads to poor movements and impacts. It is done for the camera and to make DM look like a cool ninja with a catch phrase - "Eet Weell Keel!". No disrespect to him, he is paid well for his performance, but I feel it is more a performance than a serious test.

On the episode Page Steinhardt won, his sword was so bad that it bent like it was made from taffy. The other sword was stuck against the target sideways and broke. Since Paige's sword was still intact, albeit severely bent, he won. In the case of another episode, it was brought up after shooting the final episode that DM had struck the target sideways with the loosing sword. Tapes were reviewed, and showed the winning sword hitting the target edge-on and the loosing sword hitting the target sideways. The producers said that was unfortunate, but the sword broke and there was no way to deal with the issue ... sorry.

It is my opinion that FIF isn't a real knife/sword making show, but a reality type show shot to create drama and suspense for the viewers. The contestants are real makers, just the camerawork, ridiculous sword shapes, crazy tests and materials, situations and locations for the smiths to work in, time restraints, and post production editing are all aimed to create a show with "WOW" effect that is not real.

Not part of your question, but I still wonder what they float on top of those barrels of quenchant to make that huge flash of fire. I have quenched knives and swords for 65 years in everything from motor oil to AAA and #50 and never seen that flash.
Click to expand...
I watched several seasons of FIF and arrived at many of the same conclusions as you. It is basically entertainment, since many of the edged weapons forged by the competitors have little to no real practical applications for the average person. I never saw the need to use a hand-forged copy of a Roman Gladius to slice the Easter ham or carve the Thanksgiving turkey. As to your question about the flash, my guess is black aluminum powder ("pyro" aluminum powder used in flash powder formulations for fireworks) or even powdered magnesium was added to the oil to produce a dramatic effect. What really made me ROFL was when I found out that the series was filmed in New York City; one of the most hoplophobic places in the United States, where even a simple pocketknife can get a person arrested and jailed!
 
The contestants are restricted by NDA on what they can say about the show production and some of the other details. What I got from the folks I know who did the show was that they suspect a volatile liquid is floated on the top of the oil. The hot blade ignites the liquid with a sudden flash of flame and then is gone. When asked what the quenchant barrel has they were told, "A commercial quenchant". One fellow nearly lost his beard and eyebrows from the flash. I stopped watching the show after it got really stupid, but noticed that the flash seemed reduced from what it was in the earlier episodes.

I was told one fellow who was eliminated on the second cut had been asked to trash talk his opponents in the outtakes and be more vocal on the set (filmed at a later time and location). He refused, saying he preferred to work quietly and would not talk bad about anyone in any situation ... and wouldn't do it. He made a great knife that survived the chop tests better than the others despite being chopped much harder than the rest. The others took edge damage and his did not. He said when his knife was tested in the final puncture test it again did better than the others, but he clearly saw the tester break the blade deliberately by bending it sideways instead of edge to spine to pull it out. The other blades were not bent that way.

Another thing that annoyed me about the show was the handle material supply room. They put a lot of items in there that are poor materials ... especially for a knife that will be abused in testing - Krinite, acrylics, brittle woods, etc. It also confuses me why so many smiths who should clearly know better grab that stuff and try to glue it on the knife. Why would Joe D. Smith make a 16" chopper and go right past a stack of micarta and say, "Oh, that is pretty, I'll use this faux-MOP acrylic"

Final comment and I'll let it go:
The show is not filmed as seen. It is filmed over a week. The outakes are done after the events. Final judging and such is done when the production staff can fit it into the judges schedules. It may take a month to actually film one episode. Multiple episodes are being filmed at the same time in the studio.
 
hank_rearden said:
When D. Marcaida hits a pig's carcass with a long blade, the slow motion footage often shows the blade bending and undulating like a Chinese Wushu Sword. Is this a normal feature in a long blade, or does it indicate poor forging or design? Then again, it could mean poor deployment by the user. Which is it? (Nuts, title mispelled.)
Click to expand...
Havent watched the show in a long time, but spring steel does a lot of waving when swung into something, or even just smacked on the hilt or blade by your hand.
 
"Spring Steel" is just a term for steels with certain toughness parameters with the right HT. 1070, 1080. 1095, 5160, 9260, and many other knife steels are all called
spring steel". Even 301 stainless is a spring steel. It is how you shape the blade that makes it wiggle or not. HT for higher hardness and toughness is the key with a sword blade, and the spring steels all fit that well. Truth is - just about every steel that would make a good knife would make a good spring.

Youngs modulus is the same for all knife steels. Spring steel isn't any more wiggly or bendy than any other knife steel. It is the geometry of a sword that allows the wiggling. Using "Spring steel" ... and the right HT ... allows a thinner blade that will return to straight without permanent distortion or breaking. Thin and flat wiggles. Changing the shape from flat to an elongated diamond (shinogi-tsukiri) or other shape adds firmness. Having a thicker upper blade (forte) is how the western swords dealt with strength and wiggle. A thicker spine on a sabre grind is another way to change the geometry. Because they are fairly thin, I do find sabres wiggle a lot though.
 
I still like the show, but I know it's a lot of BS. I know several makers who were on the show, some successful, some not. Watching the testing is cringey because I can see the bad hits they make sometimes! When they do the slow mo shots, you can sometimes see how far off the edge/spine line is and the blade is like slapping the pig with the flat of the blade! Of course it's not going to cut! Or it cuts thru the sugar cane, but doesn't even nick the pig. It got weird with like the WWE show, Marvel Dark Suns or whatever it was. Some of the other shows, like where they had to pay to use machines, or different times for different difficulties, etc were fun to watch.

I've heard the same where they try to get people to trash talk the other contestants and make it more dramatic. They also told people to make the final weapon fit a gloved hand and it would be tested with a gloved hand, and then in the actual testing, the gloves are in the back pocket and they gripe about a sharp edge on the handle, even though the other contestants blade didn't cut the hide on the final sharpness test. That competitor was told basically that the younger guy was going to win anyway unless there was a catastrophic failure because that's their viewer base and they wanted the younger new guys to beat out the older guys. Will Willis left over the BS he saw being done on the show.

I got a chuckle out of how many people picked Kirinite because "it's tough stuff" and then crack it. Or when they are trying to use a 8" piece of brass as a pin and their forging hammer to hammer it in and can't figure out why it doesn't work. Or the burn thrus on stabilized woods or really oily woods. Didn't someone try to burn thru a block of Micarta? I am surprised more didn't go with G10 for guards; super fast and easy to fit up!

I hated when they trash talked one guy for cutting his tip in, and then praised another for the same thing because of the time limit in the same season. Then they had the guy that pretty much did his blade as stock removal in the first round that got canned...lol, guess he missed the "forged" part, but in season one, one of the competitors looked like they did stock removal for their final blade and nothing was said on camera. You saw them cutting out the blade from barstock and grinding it, but only used their forge to HT it it looked like!

I even saw in one episode where during the final weapon test, they showed the same weapon instead of the competitors weapon for one of the tests....makes you go "hmmmm"!
 
I just want to butt in and say that years ago when I found the show I initially loved it. I liked the concept of having a maker show their skills under pressure and what they could whip up within the time constraints. But eventually even I started to question all the oddities and strange events that seemed to constantly take place. The forced banter between the contestants. I watch some of the BBQ cook off shows and that have the same problems. It started to not just feel scripted but mashed in your face scripted. Tiring. So I quit. I still like the concept and would love to see a show done for real. But I doubt there would be enough of a broad audience appeal when you look at the trash TV that gets the ratings.
 
In 2014, before the show started, I was contacted by Left Field Entertainment about the idea of a knife competition show they were considering. I was asked if I would be a contestant. At the time, I thought the goal was to build a quality knife.
I said I would be a contestant and suggested the format of Chopped - start with four makers who build a knife in a day - eliminate one. Build a second type of knife in a day - eliminate another. Let the last two go head-to-head on a final high-end knife over a longer time to select the winner. The final format was similar to my suggestion. I have no idea if they took my suggestions or already has that plan.

I was pleased with the show in the beginning and also thought that adding making a damascus blade really upped the skill level. It wasn't long before they started doing crazier and crazier tests on stupider and stupider blades. From there it went downhill as far as any real knifemaking or testing content.

Why wasn't I on the show? I had knee surgery in early 2015. They said I could be a contestant later in the season. After the surgery, it takes a while to get full strength and painless use from a knee, so I opted out of season one. I was a bit heavier than today and age 65, so I wanted to be in top shape. They said to let them know when I was recovered. I recovered, took off a few pounds, and considered season two, but decided to see where the show was going. By season three I had my second knee surgery coming up and declined being a contestant. By season four I no longer wanted to be on the show.
Another part of the reason I didn't go was I was the goldsmith at a busy Jewelry Store and being gone for up to two weeks was going to be nearly impossible to schedule with no exact dates.

Final comment on material choices:
When I would coach someone who was going on the show and they made it to the final round, I gave them a big box of micarta, guard brass, and large Corby bolts. I told them, "If you use these you have a chance of the handle surviving the tests." One didn't and lost because his handle fell apart in the crazy tests.
 
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