Forged vs. Stock Removal

Q

Quy4n8

Joined
Nov 27, 2002
Messages
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Any opinions on which makes a better knife? I know this is somewhat of a apples versus oranges question, since type of steel, heat treat, etc. all make a big difference as well. Specifically, I am considering a knife for outdoor or heavy duty use. Blade in the 5” to 6” range. If one has a knife such as the CRK Sable (one piece stock removal) or a forged blade such as the Randall Model 3 (made from O-1). Would there be much difference in edge strength, or edge holding ability? What about ease of sharpening? If you have a preference between the two, which would you choose and why? Thanks.
 
If I had to pick them blind, as in someone offered me a box with an unknown forged and stock removal blade then I would take the forged one without hesitation, as in general fogred blade tend to be of higher quality and better optomized for their intended goals. This is not because they are forged, forging has no effect on blade geometry so doesn't influence balance or cutting ability, but simply because makers who forge are more likely to have higher standards, considering all makers I have seen or read about in a statistal sense.

This of course isn't the way you buy knives so it doesn't have any influence on decisions made. When you are buying a knife look at the steel, how it was heat treated, the geometry, the balance and the handle shape and construction. All of these are vastly more important than if the steel was forged or not. I have looked at several forged blades and many were easily outperformed by stock removal blades in regards to cutting ability, handling, edge retention, durabilty, etc. .

For outdoor heavy use you are looking at a simple steel which has a high durability. This will reduce edge damage which will enable the edge to stay sharp longer and be easier to sharpen. For the same reason, and to maximize the cutting ability make sure the edge thickness is at a minimum, no need to exceed 0.035" for example, and that thickness is necessary only for *very* hard impacts, such as a heavy smack into a piece of hardened metal. For even frozen woods 0.025-0.030 is all that is necessary, with an edge angle of about 15 degrees per side. Of course with a longer blade you need a slightly thicker edge.

I would go for a steel like L6 (5160, 1084, 52100, etc.) hardened to about 56/58 HRC along the edge with a spring tempered spine, or CPM-3V uniformly hardened to 58 HRC.

-Cliff
 
Cliff,

Thanks for a most informative response. You have confirmed my suspicions that there is little difference, if any between forged and stock removal. I notice that in the steels you mention, none are stainless; why? Also you suggest that the thickness between primary and secondary bevel be in the range of .025-.030” with a secondary bevel of 15 degrees. Am I mistaken or is this much shallower than most knives are sharpened by factories or makers. Most of the knives I have are sharpened to 20 or 25 degrees. If the edges still hold up with a shallower grind, why do most producers sharpen at such a steep angle? Thanks again for your thoughts and time.

Richard
 
Stainless steels are far more brittle and thus offer poor edge retention in general for heavy work as they are much more likely to chip either by direct impact fracture or brittle failure. The blade is also much more likely to suffer gross damage when abused. The stainless steels are also a lot more difficult to machine, this combined with the edges being more likely to chip means sharpening it more difficult in general.

The only advantage to the ATS-34 class stainless steels is the ability to resist surface rusting when exposed to mild corrosive enviroments, in extreme situations (salt water soaks) they pit badly, and plan carbon steels tend to do better or at least no worse (they take more surface corrosion ususally but less deep pitting).

Yes, those edge statistics are a lot more acute than most factory knives. Production knives have to be overbuilt because a lot of people use production knives very heavily, much more so than expensive customs, as well the production knives are frequently made out of stainless steels which forces thicker edges to prevent damage, and thus lowers the cutting ability and ease of sharpening.

-Cliff
 
Hello Cliff,

I second Richard's praise of your response to his question. It is the most clear and concise answer to the forged versus stock removal question I have read.
 
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Thanks Cliff. I looked at the photo at Mr. Schott’s website bending a knife made from CPM3V nearly 90 degrees without failure. More than enough to convince me of its strength. I now need to find a maker which will use 3V and make a knife along the lines of what I am looking for. I might also make it myself. I have made 3 knives using CPM10V and have been happy with the results. Thanks again for all of your efforts, you have added tremendously to the finer points of knife design and testing. We all know more about what REALLY works and what doesn’t because of your work.
 
Keith,

Are you thinking of Ed Schott or do you have someone else in mind. Sorry if my question seems uninformed. Thanks.

Richard
 
I have generally found forged knives from ABS Smiths to have better balance than most stock removal knives.

I am not sure why but my experience to date has been that forged knives are more prone to be balanced at the first finger which makes them feel extremely light in the hand.

I don't know if this is because it is easier to forge in the distal tapers that allow for this balance than to grind them in or if it is simply a matter of the Bladesmiths that I have talked to focussing more attention on balance.
 
I'd be more inclined to think that the better balance is a result of more attention to detail by the knifemaker rather than the method of making employed. I've seen distal tapered stock-removal 440A and some pretty clubby forged damascas blades as well.
 
Got my first custom on monday, done to my specs by Ron Leuschen(Little Hen Knives). Balances on the rear 1/3 of the choil. Forged 5160, 3" skean dhu. Fat little blade, fairly heavy(around 10oz) due to thick stock, almost weightless in use with everything in your hand.
 
You can stock remove the geometry much easier than beating it to shape with a hammer, maybe this wasn't true when people were using just files to make a blade, but with modern abrasives there is no benefit to shape forging. If you want extreme tapers look at the fillet knives by Phil Wilson, or any of his knives for that matter.

-Cliff
 
Cliff, two more questions. Would there be any difference in the sharpenablity of CPM3V compared to "standard" carbon steels? Also, do you have any experience with 8670 and could this also be a suitable choice?
Richard
 
Cliff Stamp writes:

"If I had to pick them blind, as in someone offered me a box with an unknown forged and stock removal blade then I would take the forged one without hesitation, as in general fogred blade tend to be of higher quality and better optomized for their intended goals."

Does this mean that you can somehow magically identify a forged blade from a stock removal blade without looking at it?

However, let me toss out another generalization (which could be wrong): forged blades *tend* to be carbon steel while stock removal blades *tend* to be stainless. Even I know that this is not a true statement, but there is some truth in it. Also, most any forged blade will have *some* stock removal done before it is called 'done'.

So if the requirement is a blade of 'n' inches long made out of 'x' steel, and heat treated to 'o' hardness, then I do not see how it matters by what method the blade is arrived at.
 
But in my experience there does tend to be a difference.

I have some very nice Stock Removal Knives from some excellent makers and for years I argued that there was no benefit in a forged blade especially in the 3" range that I collect.

However, in the last several months I have found myself drawn more and more to forged blades from ABS Smiths. When I handle forged blades at shows they tend to have better balance than comparable Stock Removal blades.

I can't explain it but I have definitely observed it.
 
While forged blades have much to recommend them, I have doubts that anyone doing blind testing could tell the difference by handling, given that the knives were very similar.

When I handle forged blades at shows they tend to have better balance than comparable Stock Removal blades.
Click to expand...

This is not a blind test, wishful thinking perhaps.. Much like buying an organic avocado from the local co-op and one from the supermarket..given that they were both of proper ripeness, I would be hard pressed to say which was which.

The above quote doesn't even talk about cutting ability or sharpness...but hey...I can tell if an avocado is organic with my eyes closed..just by feeling its skin.

So who am I to talk?

If you are looking for a reason to purchase a forged blade, try artistry, try craftmanship, try quality, try time involved...not balance.



Steve-O



Steve-O
 
I think that simple Carbon steels benefit from forging, that is, a forged blade will be superior to a stock removal blade if made from the same steel with the same geometry.

I grind from flat stock using high alloy steels which do not take to forging as easily. You can't forge D2 below about 1750°F. Steels that air harden are difficult to forge.

The CPM steels are forged by the hot isostatic pressing process during formation.
 
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