Forged vs. Stock Removal

First, show me a human being who can tell the difference between the performance of a forged blade and a stock removal blade.... That being said, I practice both styles of knifemaking and have found no difference between the two - I simply prefer to forge as I find it more fun. The argument about the "grain compression" or whatever else they want to call the effect of a blade being forged is total crap. With the steels available in modern metallurgy, a knifemaker doing stock removal can purchase barstock with these qualities inherent in the steel - even in simple tool steels.

Even if this grain compression were true in the academic sense in a controlled environment (a forge is not a controlled environment, it is worked by human hands), the stresses place on a blade by the act of forging it to shape require a smith to normalize the blade after he is finished forging to relieve the internal stressing. This is one thing a stock removal knifemaker really need not do as he doesn't introduce these stresses into the blade.

This idea of the forged blade being made better or having better balance is crap - a maker, no matter what technique he uses, either makes a good knife or he doesn't. Need proof? I can forge you a really crappy, unbalanced knife - just don't expect me to put my mark on it.

Tim
 
In a handmade knife it all comes down to the maker's skill not the type of construction. A poorly made forged knife will live up to its heritage; same is true for stock removal.


What about forged vs. stock removal for the same type of steel? For example, would a 1095 forged big blade have better performance than say a TOPS stock removal 1095 big blade?
 
manicreader :

Does this mean that you can somehow magically identify a forged blade from a stock removal blade without looking at it?
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Yes, it is called the power of speech. I would invoke the magic thusly : "I will take the forged blade if you please.", at which point the person offering the two blades would hand over the forged one.

shgeo :

The CPM steels are forged by the hot isostatic pressing process during formation.
Click to expand...

In that respect all modern steels are forged when they are rolled for example.

-Cliff
 
I have focussed on balance because that has been the biggest discriminator I have detected.

As has been stated I have well made stock removal and forged blades that all have excellent fit, finish, sharpness and edge retention but the forged blade that I own and the ones I have recently handled at shows have the advantage in balance.

I do believe that if we were to meet at a show and you blindfolded me and put a selection of forged and stock removal knives on a table that I would be able to discern the difference by balance at least to a degree significantly higher than guessing.
 
The fact (or opinion) that forged blades tend to have better balance doesn't have anything to do with the forging; it is just that many forgers tend to take more pains with this aspect of design. The average bladesmith is, in my opinion, more inclined to take a holistic approach to knife making.

That is, however, just an opinion, and you know what they say about opinions.
 
The judgement of balance is also relative, heavy utility knives can benefit from a forward balanced for power, light to medium utility knives are often neutral in balance for versatility, light extended do well often with a handle heavy balance for security.

In short then the balance point can be anywhere from the tip to the end of the handle and be both positive or negative depending on the task of the knife and preference of the user. The exact same knife (to a high degree) can even be made with different balance points to suit various tasks or simply the preference of the user.

For example around here most people like very handle heavy fillet knives, this comes from traditionally using heavily ground down chefs knives as fillet blades. Thus you would see a neutral fillet knife as having poor balance here, whereas someone as might say it is perfect.

User strength is also a major factor, the stronger your wrist the lighter in balance a knife will feel. Khukuris users for example will tend to see just about any other knife as being very light in balance.

-Cliff
 
This might be a dumb question but, when the ABS tests blades for bendability and such during the process of promoting knife makers to master smith (etc.), are any of those blades made from stock removal? I was under the impression that they all had to be hand forged.

If they are all hand forged, than why does the ABS recognize the forged blade smith and not the stock removal blade smith?

Jon

Go easy on me I'm still on the learning curve.
 
Blade Smiths forge by definition.

Smiths forge metal to shape.

Knife Makers can include both Stock Removal makers and Blade Smiths. But Blade Smiths forge.
 
Kimber,
ABS is just one group (there's also the knifemaker's guild) that follows a "style" of knifemaking - specifically forging blades. When Sdouglas stated that by definition, a bladesmith is one who forges blades, he's refering to the etymology of the term smith from "smite" (to strike - in this case w/a hammer). The ABS testing is really only a way to determine a member's ability to smith a blade that is able to complete the specific criteria of the ABS test. ABS test blades must be forged (doesn't specifically say hand forged, some use power hammers).

Could a stock removal blade do the ABS test? I have no doubt that one properly made could. It's simply that the ABS is about forging, not stock removal. It's not saying forging's better than stock removal, it's just a matter of preserving the art of forging.

Tim
 
The ABS performance test is considered very basic. Just because a stock removal blade can cut a free hanging rope, be bent to 90 degrees, cut a 2x4 twice, doesn't mean the blades are the same quality. I have talked to ABS smiths who said that if a forged blade could just pass the test, then the maker has a long way to go in the way of heat treating and forging.

I think that both stock removal blades and forged blades have their places. Really I don't think it matters which you use as long as you are happy with it. The thing I like about forging is that I can take otherwise waste steel(leaf springs,load control shafts) and turn them into serviceable tools. I also like being able to use the forge I do that with to normalize and anneal the blades. Forging is also a good way to make other stuff...hoes, tomahawks....and the maker isn't limited by the (dimensional)size of the started piece of metal(well expect for the volume of metal present when starting)
 
"I have talked to ABS smiths who said that if a forged blade could just pass the test, then the maker has a long way to go in the way of heat treating and forging."

Very true. This ABS test is not meant to be the end of a smith's education, it's the start. It's a standard that a smith has to complete to become a journeysmith, the first level of professional recognition in ABS... I joined ABS recently so I have to wait a number of years before I can "officially" take the JS test. Even when I do take it, it's just another beginning....

In a way, I wish there were (who knows, there may be someday) 3 levels to the ABS testing - the journeysmith with a monosteel blade, the master smith with a pattern welded blade, and finally 1 more level with a crucible steel blade... oh well... :)

Tim
 
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