forged vs stock removal

C

cjd1980

Joined
Sep 3, 2008
Messages
236
i've been forgeing knives from coil and leaf springs for quite awhile now and resently started making stock removal knives (i got a bandsaw:))anyway I used 5160 for some of the knive because thats what I was always told coilspring are made from. I have noticed that the forged knives seem to be more rugged and hold an edge better then the stock removal ones i heat treat and temper them both the same any ideas?
 
Is this the correct answer? > Excellent steel, Excellent HT, and a good maker, and both methods are equal.
 
Lycosa - absolutely !!
Worst [but common ] assumptions are , the leaf spring is 5160, the saw blade is L-6 !
 
mete said:
Lycosa - absolutely !!
Worst [but common ] assumptions are , the leaf spring is 5160, the saw blade is L-6 !
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o come on you know all saw blades are L6 ;):rolleyes::eek::foot:

I say this, if you have enought steel to make a bunch of knives from then have a chunk tested, then you know what your dealing with. but if you just have a small bit then just have fun with it. but don't guess and say its this type of steel and then try and sell it. you put all this hard work into a knife the least you can do is shell out a few bucks to get good steel that you know what it is. not saying that springs are not good steel, its just you don't know what it is. and thats just about as helpfully as a rock in your boot. you could live with it but its going to be bugging you till you take care of it. just my 2 cents
 
Lycosa said:
Is this the correct answer? > Excellent steel, Excellent HT, and a good maker, and both methods are equal.
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And poor steel, poor maker, and poor HT will produce equal knives with both methods.

It really seems like a personal decision to me. There's no right or wrong.
 
What about final hardness, are they the same? Keep on with the forging I would say. All I have ever used is scrap spring steel, and have had very good luck with it. Though some times there is rust and pitting to deal with. I haven't been able to find anything better than mild steel localy, other than some w1 drill rod.
 
What you have to keep in mind is that every time you take a blade in and out of the fire when forging, that is part of the heat treat. To get a fair comparison between a forged and a stock removal blade from the same piece of steel you have to use the exact same heats for both, including the forging heats.

John0270

W1 drill rod is good material. At least you can use an exact heat treat recipe with it, since you know exactly what it is. W1 can have a wide range of carbon content, though.

Todd
 
Part of the problem is the changes to the material due to the forging process. Forging compacts and breaks down the grain structure at the molecular level, these changes also affect the heat treat and how it affects the blade. These characteristics are what make a forged blade tougher and stronger in general.
 
Ya, but with stock removal you get those static sparks from your belly button to the tool rest - which act kind of like a particle accelerator in the sense that it just recreates the whole universe (at least for a moment). Forged blades just don't have that. The cellular structure just doesn't synergize the same cause your hammer just can't keep up with my belly button accelerator. (No pain - No gain)

Try stock removal. You know you want it! ;)

Rob!
 
NickWheeler said:
Where is that icon of the little smiley dude eating popcorn??? ;)
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NickWheeler said:
Where is that icon of the little smiley dude eating popcorn??? ;)
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My thought exactly! Thanks for finding it Murdock. :D

By the way, while forging makes all kinds of nice colors there's nothing to compare to fine deep purple of Rob's particle accelerator spark. Based solely on the esthetics of the attendant colors, I'd have to vote for stock removal. Besides, that's how custom knife making got its big boost in the 70s, and you can't argue with the kind of craft that's grown from roots like that!

And finally my own real reason for sticking to stock removal: lazy cheapness! To my mind, forging invokes a whole other discipline's learning curve, but first you have to acquire a boat-load of really esoteric equipment... That's a no-brainer for me. ;)

And in all seriousness, steel is steel and the laws of physics apply. Same HT on the same steel, same results. It doesn't really matter whether we forge or grind our knives, what makes them knives is the HT.
 
Oh, no!
Molecules, cellular structure, compacting grain structure, etc.
And I thought I knew what I was doing..........
Where's the popcorn?
 
opps looks like i opened a big can of worms and just to claify cause it looks like a couple of people may have been confused the stock removal was 5160 flatstock not a bandsaw blade. i personallly enjoy both meathods of making knives and intend on doing both was just wondering there is diff or not
 
Rob, have you found with your BBA (belly button accelerator) that the grain size in the finished blade varies inversely with the accumulation of BBL (belly button lint) and BBD (belly button depth)? I understand that this little known fact has led to some very high performance blades and some rather impressive fires within those that try to exploit this phenomenon by artificially creating the BBL and adopting a practice similar to one used by some blade smiths called PTL (packing the lint). Unfortunately if you have an "outtie" you are SOL and might as well buy a hammer.:D
 
wildmike said:
Part of the problem is the changes to the material due to the forging process. Forging compacts and breaks down the grain structure at the molecular level, these changes also affect the heat treat and how it affects the blade. These characteristics are what make a forged blade tougher and stronger in general.
Click to expand...


I suggest you read this
http://www.cashenblades.com/articles/lowdown/lowdown.html

the idea of "compacting" steel while forging rates up there with quenching in the blood of a virgin
 
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