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KnitePrince

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I am looking for a forge that does NOT use the Kaowool, but has firebrick all the way around.... I am on my second forge, the first burned out the kaowool quickly, even though it was well coated... the second also died, I stripped it and put 3000 degree firebrick in it, and it is now holding up very well. Now I want a three burner forge, but they are either cheap kaowool insulated, or they cost in excess of 800 dollars... "Even then some of them have Kaowool" I have a materials list to build my own 3 burner out of firebrick at near five hundred dollars with 3/16 plating around it, but thought I would ask if there is something available with brick instead of wool. Thanks!
 
Larger Knives. Forging out the pattern steel for the outer layers of a knife, Long enough to be able to cut it in half to use for both sides. The forge I have is not deep enough, and in time I hope to be able to make LONGER blades than the ones I am making now.
 
So I’m assuming that your forge is blocked at one end, correct? If so 1) cut a hole in the back so the piece your working on can stick out the back or 2) make a two burner forge that is hollow all the way through.
There’s really no reason to have a 3 burner forge, especially since you can only work on one section at a time.
but if you still feel like you need a 3 burner forge, I would recommend making it yourself.
 
I find your questions strange, and your reasoning flawed. With a three burner forge you can use it as a SINGLE burner, double, or.. a three burner forge for larger projects, using a firebrick block to make it larger or smaller as necessary. Versatility I do not have with my current forge. My first forge was open open both ends, and I didn't like it. I blocked it off with firebrick stacked behind it, it heated better, but eventually it literally melted the entire back of the forge off... Of course by then the Kaowool was falling apart. I tried to save it, and managed to get a bit more time out of it, but it wasnt worth the effort. My current forge is two burner. It heats VERY well to forge welding temperatures, even better than the first one did, in less time. But again the Kaowool was disintegrating and needed to be replaced... I cut it apart, and used firebrick Mortar to glue the firebricks into it. I truly love it now, and use it when forging layers together, but for a nine inch knife, I need to forge out a pice of pattern welded steel eighteen inches minimum to cut it in half, and its not long enough. I cut a hole in the back of it, and it works, but it takes more effort than I believe is necessary, moving the piece through the forge and trying to get it all to welding temp and keep it there... a forge that is longer, with an extra burner would allow the entire piece to be heated without having to fuss with it. (My Belief only I have not tried it yet.) Though I have used a three burner devil forge, and it worked, but I don't like the burners, they dont get nearly as hot as the burners in my two burner forge, AND the devil Forge I used the kaowool was already sagging and falling apart.

Quote" There’s really no reason to have a 3 burner forge, especially since you can only work on one section at a time.

One section of what? When my piece needs to be 20 inches long by the time it is forged out to the correct length, it IS one section???? One piece of material that can be brought to temp without sliding it back and forth multiple times trying to get it all up to the same temperature?

I freely admit I am self taught. I wanted to make knives, so I just.. started! I am making some nice knives and want to upgrade to meet the needs I am facing. To do that I need... (Want?) a larger forge capable of heating the piece I am working with less fussing and work... Yes, I could, use a single burner forge with a hole in both ends to do it, but thats not what I asked about...
The forge I used with three burners, took FOREVER to heat to welding temperature (Just a bad design?) So I want a better one, that I am prepared to build, but I thought I might ask and see if there is a forge that impressed the people here enough that it might be recommended, and would save me a lot of work. So, again, I ask, is there a three burner forge built with firebrick, instead of Kaowool that could meet my needs? If not? Okay, I will begin the process of building my own.
 
Well its probably my complete lack of any experience other than what I have taught myself. I always try to make things easier if possible, and in my own mind having a longer forge would do that. I could replace the one I have, and it would be much more versatile. Again, in my own mind.
I was just a bit confused, but thats no excuse for not thanking you for replying. So thank you for the reply!!! I will begin ordering the things I need.
 
I would suggest building it yourself. The bricks are roughly 9X4.5X2.5", so simplest arrangement will be roughly 9"X9.5X22.5" the chamber will be 5" wide by 4.5" high.
All you need is:
A top and bottom frame from 1.5X1.5 angle iron.
A box of twenty K-30 firebricks.
Three burners

The bottom frame is a rectangle that holds five bricks. Weld the corners to make it so you can lay five bricks in the frame and have about 1/2" of extra length to allow for the mortar joints.
Make the top frame identical.
Make the top bricks:
Cut or saw a semicircle on one side of four bricks so they will mate to make a 1.5" hole. Cut a1.5" hole in the center of one brick. When installed as the top bricks, these holes will be the burner ports. Your burner port tubes will be three 4" long pieces of stainless pipe that fits these holes with a little extra room. Drill three holes in the sides of one end of each port tube and weld on nuts for 1/4" thumb screws. These will be the locking screws for the burners.

Dry-fit the assembly.
Place the top frame on the worktable and set the five top bricks in it.
Set a row of two and a half bricks on their sides down each side.
Set a row of five bottom bricks on top of the side bricks.
Set the bottom frame on these bricks.
If all went well, take apart and re-do the procedure applying satanite mortar between the bricks. Let the refractory dry a couple days undisturbed.
When dry, weld four 15" corner pieces of angle iron on to lock it all together. The extra will make the legs.
Turn over and set the legs on two 24" long pieces of angle iron. Weld the down legs on these runners, adjusting as needed to get it level. The basic forge body is now done.
Weld on a 4" wide shelf at the back and front to set bricks on to adjust the size opening.

A slide out tong rest is also nice. It is made by welding two 24" pieces of 3/8" pipe on each side of the frame. You want them at a height that places the top of the pipe even with the top of the shelf you welded on the front of the forge. Make the sliding rest with two 36" lone pieces of round stock that fits in the pipe. Place the rods in the pipes and weld a 2" wide cross bar across them to make the tong rest. In use, slide the rest out to the needed distance to support long bars of forging stock, swords, or tongs.

Next, you add the burner port tubes and support on the top. Set the burner post tubes in the port holes of the bricks. Slide a couple bricks inside to keep them flush with the forge chamber top. Once in place, set a piece of angle iron down the center of the top and tack weld it to the burner ports. Remove and weld up properly, then reinstall. Weld the angle iron to the top frame on the ends. Use satanite to mortar the ports in place.
Make or buy three burners and you are ready to go.

Cut some bricks as back walls. Cut one with a 3X2" port on the bottom for extra-long blades and swords to slide out the back when forging or doing HT. You can slide these bricks in to close off the forge length and run only one or two burners. Use some bricks to

A coating of Cast-o-lite 30 or bubble alumina on the forge floor will make it last longer, especially if you will be welding with flux.

When it needs eventual rebuilding. just grind away the welds on the top corners and disassemble, Replace the bricks and reassemble.
 
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Excellent instructions. Thank you for taking the time to type out all of that. Saved and printed!!! It was my intention to put two layers of brick on the bottom of the forge, without mortaring the top layer down so they can be replaced easier... I have not heard about Casto-O-Lite 30......

Nice, 3000 degree temp on it. Much better than what I am using. Thank you for the information, this was extremely helpful!!!! And thank you BHB for getting Stacy's attention!
 
What is your refractory? Good refractory (Mizzou, Castolite, Satanite, etc) will protect the KaoWool for a long time if done properly. Local hardware store furnace flu cement will not hold up at all, which is what I am guessing you are using if you haven't heard of Cast O Lite before?? You need to be careful placing things into the forge as well; dropping a heavy billet onto the floor of the forge will crack the refractory very quickly. A cast refractory floor that will withstand flux or replaceable sacrificial firebrick is what most do when forge welding.

Unless you have a press or power hammer, you most likely will not be able to work an 18" bar quick enough to work the entire thing efficiently in the one heat, hence the reason for not needing to heat up the entire 18" bar. Heat a portion of the bar, work that portion and continue down the billet/bar. Heating up the entire bar/billet every time you work on a smaller section is a waste. I have seen forges made from a propane tank, open at both ends, with firebrick doors and a single forced air burner, used for making large damascus billets and stretching bars out to over 18". The forge I saw was up to full heat in 5-7 minutes running at ~1 psi propane. A round forge will be more efficient than a square forge. Most square forge have burners pointing straight down, which isn't the best for even heating of the piece, either. Proper forge design is key to getting it efficient and using the right materials will make it durable.

You can also cast directly with refractory, but the cast refractory will likely longer to heat up, is much heavier, etc and may take a long time to do if in 1 thick layer. Atlas Forge has some firebrick forges or what looks like solid refractory forges in single and 2 burner with a 6x13" chamber and the Graham is a blown burner forge with a 5x13" chamber, so those may be other options for you?

Majestic Forge and NC Deluxe Whisper are both square 3 burner forges that look like they use more of a brick like insulation.
 
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follow the advise of Stacy
ive seen made forges that can build full swords easily .. with 5 burners in them and 2/3 feet in length
it is really not that hard to do .. you can either use pre made fire bricks and build your burners or you can cast the whole forge
there are several "Castable" Ceramics that can insulate a forge easily.. 2 long pipes for example let you make the inside/outside
whatever size you want it.. pour the cast able ceramic in place.. leave it alone for a week and slowly fire it in sections to fully cure it all.
a 50 lb bucket of cast able mud in not super expensive... most of my "Knife Maker Friends" only build Damascus bars for 80 %
of the knives/swords they build.. the kitty litter for the floor is not a bad idea (just make a reservoir for it to stay ) with a small narrow pan
while pouring/casting the inside of the shell.
 
All good ideas, thank you!
I do have a press. It saves a VAST amount of time. I am currently upgrading it and should have it back online by tomorrow. I bought a power hammer but didn't like it much so I sold it, and what I cant do with the press I do by hand. Tried to post pics but apparently you have to have a host site for the pictures. I havent had a host for pics since Photo Bucket locked all my pictures unless I paid them.. never went back.... Is there an easier way to post pictures?

Yes I intend to use two layers of coated firebrick in the floor. I found out the hard way what Borax does to the firebrick in my first forge. I used Rutland refractory Cement bought locally, assuming its not good for a forge now that I know theres a difference.....
 
Yeah, I did the Rutlands like 20 years ago on my first coffee can forge. Did not work at all! Use the right refractory over the kaowool and it will work better and last longer. Many people put a flat floor in with a refractory that will stand up to borax as well.

I use imgur to host pics, seems to work well!
 
I'm with Bunker on this, triple burner forges are a waste. Thinking you can properly HT without moving the blade is wrong-think, and a good single burner forge is more than adequate to make even the longest swords.
 
Oh, come on, everyone knows that FIF uses three burner forges, so they must be the best way to make knives ;)

Seriously, there are tasks where a two or three burner forge works wonderfully. That said, for simple forging, a well-built single burner forge works just fine.

I use a three burner NC Whisper Lowboy for 90% of my forging and other basic smithy work.
 
triple burner forges are a waste.

I have to respectfully disagree. The blank I drew out last night was 21 inches long. I used my two burner forge, got frustrated with it and fired up the three burner Forge to finish it.... I can keep one end CLOSED and the blank heated up faster, I had to move it less. YES I still moved it, I turned it over to make sure it was evenly heated.. thats it... I will cut the cable billet in half, use half on each side of the core, and draw THAT out, it will be long enough to make TWO nice knives from. Of course the two burner forge would WORK, but...... why when the three burner makes it easier?


Seriously, there are tasks where a two or three burner forge works wonderfully. That said, for simple forging, a well-built single burner forge works just fine.

Yes!

Stacy...
NC Whisper Lowboy.... I looked at that forge, but being frustrated with the Kaowool, I passed it by.... How has yours held up?
 
The floor is solid refractory. I have never had to do more than put a little satanite on the sides. Mine has run flawlessly for over 20 years with only the floor being replaced about ten years ago. I used rammed refractory to replace the floor.

Proper coating and curing of kao-wool with satanite is pretty much bullet proof. Many forges run daily for years with only a little satanite touch-up now and then.
 
It must be the coating... first month or three the kaowool is fine, but then it begins to sag and fall apart. Pressing it back into place and re coating only seems to HURRY the process of disintegration along.

Rammed refractory?
refractory cement with silicon carbide, graphite, electric calcined anthracite as raw materials, mixed with a variety of ultra-fine powder additives, fused cement or composite resin as binder made of bulk material.
Is that something you mixed or purchased? And thanks again for answering questions!!!!
 
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