forging damascus

legato1

legato1

Joined
Sep 8, 2006
Messages
1,188
i have ordered a forge and wanted to try to make bike chain damascus. i know alot of makers use a hydraulic press or a power hammer, but i dont have any of those tools and was wondering if they are absolutely necessary. What type of chain is good to use? would a newly purchased replacement chain work, or would one off of an old bike be better, if its from an old one does the rust need to be ground off? and last where can i obtain anhydrous borax? thanks guys, ima give this a shot... and would appreciate any help. - Stan
 
Woah! A big starting point.:eek:
Best to learn how to regulate your forge and how to forge iron and steel for a while before tackling something like bike chain damascus.

As a general rule, that type of project requires a bigger forge, powerful tools, powdered metals,and a good bit of experience.The chain has to be all metal and of the right type of metal.Many light duty chains have plastic sleeves.

An experienced smith, with a lot of skill and determination might be able to do it by hand with limited equipment, but I doubt the success rate would be high.

A better place to start with for your setup and experience, would be to order a couple pieces of cable from Darren Ellis and learn to make cable damascus. Once you have the procedure down pat, then you will be able to figure out what you can do next.:)

Good luck with your new forge. We are waiting to see some of the results.:thumbup:
Stacy
 
I'm going to (mostly) agree with Stacy here. While I know a FEW 'smiths who can do motorcycle/chainsaw chain damascus by hand without powdered steel and cans, etc. They are the exception and definitely not the rule. There will be an excellent chance that you'll end up with a useless, slag-filled mess, and a VERY small chance that it'll work decently.

I'd recommend what Stacy says. Get comfortable with your new forge first. Learn how to control the atmosphere to keep it reducing even at a welding heat.

I will depart from Stacy's advice on a place to start with your forge welding. I personally think that cable damascus is a horrible place to start. It requires control and a light touch that IMHO isn't as easy as a straight laminate. I'd start with a few layers of simple high carbon steel (1080 & 15n20 is a great starting place and can be had very reasonably from Kelly Cupples). Stack up 5 or 7 layers and get your welding going there. Read threads on the topic here and take time in your preparation. An extra 15 minutes in prep can make the difference between a beautiful billet and something to toss in the scrap bucket. If you can , get a copy of Jim Hrisoulas' book "The Pattern Welded Blade". It's an excellent introduction to the methods of forge welding for the bladesmith and also gives you detail of several patterns to work on.

Contrary to what a lot of other folks have said to me in the past, I also don't recommend learning to forge weld with mild steel. It's frankly a lot harder to make stick than high carbon steel is.

Just my $.02,

-d
 
cool, i just considered bike chain because it is available and i thought i might be able to do it, cable sounds good, does the cable have to be ordered or can it be found around town? is there a special name im looking for? or type. thanks?
 
Letago1, I have to agree w/ Deker , I think you'll have more success with a stacked billet than the cable. It may be easier to just twist and hit the cable, but from my experience ,Its difficult if you dont want voids all throughout.

Shawn
 
il give em both a shot, i want to learn as much as i can so il proly be doin both, what does the atmosphere of the forge have to be in order to weld, the forge i ordered does not have a blower, its a two burner with no blower, will that work for welding? im just learning about the process and what works and what doesent from you guys while i wait for it to get here, i was asked by an art complex that im involved with (blue star) to create a damascus blade for a show their having, i told them its above my skill level, but they asked that i atleast try it. thanks guys - Stan
 
I just wanted to stress what has been said already! Please do yourself a favor and start out with some simple forging then move on to welding a few layers of steel before you try the chain. A few layers of 15n20 and 1080 will be so so so much easier than chain. To put it point blank I have not had chian weld up to anything usable yet and I have tried several times. After years of forging I started trying to weld cable and chain and failed again and again. Then I started to weld plain flat layers of various steels and what do you know I could do that. Eventually I tried cable again and it took a few tries but I can do that now but I still cant get chain to weld to a solid billet, try as I may I always end up with inclusions. And I am not going to be waisting my time with it unless it is in a canister with powdered steel! Now maybe you have some sort of god given natural welding skill and it will work right from the start but I would bet dollars to doughnuts that you will put alot of energy into something almost futile.

Well good luck
 
personally i find welding chains, and cable to be fairly simple if you prep everything properly, and Ive never welded anything in a can, with any kind of powder. it's not really that difficult even with used materials, just gotta clean them right, and take your time. but not every body is capable of doing the things that others do as easily. me i have had very few problems in the ways of welding, but getting my grinds nice , even, and flat has and still is giving me one hell of a time.


i will agree that to start with a simple billet may be more successful, take your self about a 15'' piece of 10xx series steel, and some saw blade. cut it like you were gonna fold it like an accordion maybe be every 3'', then get it hot, and fold back about 3'' of the 10xx, and slide a piece of saw blade in, and weld, then do it again fold back at your next cut and slide in another piece of saw blade, and weld. do this until your left with just about a 3'' long billet, draw it out , fold, then simply flatten and grind or forge out a blade. you'll have a very low layer count billet but regardless it's still damascus. im no expert by any means, but this is worked for me when i started welding.


PS. my hats off to all you grinding experts, grinding them blade makes me crazy, a screw up 2 of every 3 !!

Andrew Takach
 
here's a close up of some chain i did last year, just for an example of what you'll end up with if you are as stubborn as i am and go ahead and try anyway, by the way if you do try and fail who really cares, there will be no harm done as long as you don't get discouraged and give up on trying to weld new materials all together.

new.jpg


andrew takach
 
thanks guys, the reason i was drawn to the cable and chain is because their available to me, where the specific steel types are not because its hard to get my parents to order me stuff online, i can however scavenge the junkyards and steel shops to find stuff, the forging ive been doing so far has been of leaf-springs and railroad spikes. is there any types of scavenged steel i can weld together for practice? for example a leaf-spring and some band-saw blades? pics to come when i begin to prepare billets for when forge arrives. thanks - Stan
 
weld the leaf springs up for practice, though down the road new materials will be a better choice. jmo

andy
 
legato1 said:
thanks guys, the reason i was drawn to the cable and chain is because their available to me, where the specific steel types are not because its hard to get my parents to order me stuff online, i can however scavenge the junkyards and steel shops to find stuff, the forging ive been doing so far has been of leaf-springs and railroad spikes. is there any types of scavenged steel i can weld together for practice? for example a leaf-spring and some band-saw blades? pics to come when i begin to prepare billets for when forge arrives. thanks - Stan
Click to expand...


Stan,

If you PM me your address I'll send you a little bit of known steel to start with (as long as you don't mind a couple of days wait before I can send it. It'll be early next week before I'll be back in the office.)

I do heartily agree that you should do some regular forging first though. Also, check the ABANA website and see if there's an affiliate chapter within driving distance. If you've got any local blacksmiths they will be a world of help to you in your learning.

-d
 
thanks, pm sent. i checked the map and the closest one is onalaska texas and its about 280 miles away. ive done some regular forging in a barb q pit with a hair dryer, and im proly gonna rough forge a few blades in my new forge to get the feel for it, but i want to give welding a shot atleas a few times. thanks guys. also where does one obtain anhydrous borax?
 
I don't know where people buy anhydrous borax, but I use 20 Mule Team Borax. It's called a 'Natural Laundry Booster' and at least here in WI it's in any grocery store, even the tiny one in my tiny town.

Anhydrous means that the water has been removed. If you want the 2MT Borax to be anhydrous you need to bake it in the oven. I don't remember exactly what temp (I look it up online every time) but it's something like 250-300 for around an hour.

Making it anhydrous (or buying anhydrous) just makes it not splatter so much in the forge. I also pour it through a seive cause it clumps up a little while baking.

In case you don't know, the borax will eat away forge linings. You need to add bubble alumina from Darren Ellis (http://refractory.elliscustomknifeworks.com/) or use sacrificial brick on the bottom. Some people put cheap cat litter over the brick and replace it every once in a while.

Here's a good link for chainsaw damascus:
http://www.knifeseek.com/workshop/tut_chainsaw_burnett.shtml
 
thanks, im gonna prepare my supplies before the forge gets here, so that means i have plenty of time to bake some borax. thanks
 
legato1 said:
thanks, im gonna prepare my supplies before the forge gets here, so that means i have plenty of time to bake some borax. thanks
Click to expand...

Just remember that unless you keep your baked borax COMPLETELY dry it won't be anhydrous anymore. I've never used anything but straight 20 mule tem out of the box and never had a problem. Once it hits the hot steel it loses it's water pretty quickly ;)

-d
 
i was still wondering what yall mean by forge atmosphere? is there a special something that needs to be there, or for that matter something that shouldent be there? i read that alot of people use forges with blowers for welding, but the forge i ordered has no blower, it uses two burners. can i still weld with no blower? thanks - stan
 
legato1 said:
i was still wondering what yall mean by forge atmosphere? is there a special something that needs to be there, or for that matter something that shouldent be there? i read that alot of people use forges with blowers for welding, but the forge i ordered has no blower, it uses two burners. can i still weld with no blower? thanks - stan
Click to expand...

There are three types of forge atmosphere you can generally produce (this goes for gas as well as coal/charcoal, but it's much easier to quantify in words for a gas forge):

  • Oxidizing - This happens when you have oxygen inside the forge that isn't being burned by your forge fuel. This is bad for steel as it means there is free oxygen to cause scale or burning or your steel. Characterized by no "dragon's breath" exiting the forge.
  • Neutral - A good balance. Most of the oxygen in your fuel is being burned within the forge. In a gas forge it's characterized by the "dragon's breath" is barely exiting the forge door.
  • Reducing - You have more fuel than you can burn inside of the forge. What this means is that you are burning all of the oxygen inside the forge. This is what you want for welding since it tends to produce a minimum of scale on your work. Scale is the #1 enemy of forge welding. Characterized by the "dragon's breath" from the forge being more enlarged. I generally like to keep it about 4" long outside of the forge. This is NOT to say that you should have a big, lazy, orange flame exiting the forge. That's way too much extra fuel and you're likely not getting the most heat you can and you're definitely making carbon monoxide. This is bad. Get a carbon monoxide detector for your shop and mount it at head level.

As to whether or not you can weld with the forge you're getting...Well, that depends on the forge itself. More importantly it's how you run the forge. You'll have to play with it until you get a feel for your forge and see how to get the most heat from it. A good test for welding heat is to bring a piece of steel to a red heat and flux it with Borax. Stick it back into the forge and let it get up to the heat of the forge. Glance into the forge (DON'T STARE! IT WILL BURN YOUR EYES LIKE WELDING FLASH! Do a search in this forum for "AuraLens" or "AUR99" for more info on proper protective eyewear.) and see if the borax is "dancing" on the surface of the steel. The steel should look like a stick of butter that is starting to melt with some little bubbles dancing around on the surface. Now, if you take a piece of steel wire (an unbent clothes hanger works well) and stick it into the forge and touch it to the already heated and fluxed steel, it should "stick" a little once the wire heats up. This guarantees you have a welding heat.

Good luck!

-d
 
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