Forging Damscus

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Pyromaniac

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May 13, 2013
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Three quick questions.

1) Has anyone did work with cable and chainsaw chain damascus? If yall have, does anyone have recomendations on them? Are they worth it?

2) Does it matter what kind of Boarx you use for flux. All I have been seeing in tutorials is "Borax". I bought a box of 20 mule team borax. Will it work just as well?

3) How do you get a billet or forged knife blank to stay straight and have flat and level surfaces like a peice of bar stock.

Thanks.
 
20 mule team will work fine, it's got disadvantages compared to anhydrous, more related to how they act in the forge and how much they can damage your liner, but they both work.


I wouldn't recommend bothering with cable or chain or any kind of damascus of that type until you're an experienced pattern welder, and even then, it takes a lot of skill and luck to get stuff worth being used for "blade" material IMHO, even then it's iffy. Can make some great fitting material though, the best results are usually gotten in can welds, from known stock and depending, filler with powdered metal.


The answer to number three depends a lot on what tools you're working with. If you're making damascus for yourself, I'd ask "Why do you need to turn it into a piece of bar stock to use it forge it into a blade?" If you're using a power hammer or a press, there are various ways to get the bars pretty flat. If you're selling to stock removal guys, you probably need to surface grind, blanchard, mill (knee) or at the very least hot roll it flat.

If you're working by hand without any big equipment, best you can do is planish by hand and find a buddy to swing a sledge while you hold a flatter, but if you're just going to be forging knives with it for yourself, why not just get it close and start forging to shape? Same planishing and flatting apply even if you're using bar stock IMHO, unless you're just forging to outline.
 
Here's some cable damascus that Murray Carter just completed forging:

977305_468736089876745_2029742033_o.jpg


2) Murray uses flux made with borax, boric acid and iron filings, all in powder form.

3) Forged using a power hammer. The cable was forge welded into a bar, which was then forge welded into a split anchor bolt, and then forged to shape, quenched in water, and ground on a revolving waterwheel.

source: saw the whole process
 
Weld "new" clean cable inside round stainless tubing; fill the space around the cable with powdered steel such as 1084. You can accomplish the same with primary chain.
I've switched to hydrocarbon solvent from borax for all the damascus welded in our shop. Cleaner and more assured welds.

On canister welds; the reason for using this technique is the cable or chain welds in one press; cut the stainless can open after the weld and draw the billet out.
 
OK. I do have some experience making damascus. I've made a total of 4 knives out of it but most billets go to guards, pommels, or reallly cool looking tear dop paper weights.My main problems were that I could never really get the billet the same thickness . I try to stay away from forging a damascus billet into a blank because a smith once told me it distorted the pattern. I have no idea if this is true. I was scared I would ruin one of my few good billets if I tried it so therefore I have always just used stock removal on damascus. I would love if someone could clear that up for me. All I currently have to work with is a rail road anvil and a few hand sledes with flat ground faces. Javand, what is this flattener you speak of? Never heard of one.
 
Some patterns are better forged to shape (random and raindrop) and some look better ground (ladder). A flatter is a top tool like a hammer with a big flat face that you set on top of your steel, and strike it with a sledge. It flattens the steel, thus the name. Look at blacksmiths depot or centaur forge for one.

You might want to check out nick wheelers video at the bottom of all his posts. We would all be lucky to catch some of the knowledge crumbs that fall off his table.
 
Cody is dead right on all counts.

I recommend Brent Bailey for a flatter personally, but I like supporting traditional craftsmen, making heirloom quality tools, as Brent does.


Further on the subject of forging or grinding billets, it really depends on what you're "looking for" in the end result. There are guys out that that say you can "only" get the star shapes out of a twist billet by grinding into it, but I know of some insane examples that would beg to differ.


It depends on many factors, most importantly how far "you" forge. I usually prefer the interesting activity gained by forging most patterns, but I also prefer very busy patterns and less homogeneity.


Like the possibilities for pattern development, the fulfillment possibilities of said patterns are endless.
 
Thanks everyone. So is it possible for me to make cable or chainsaw damascus without canister welding though?
 
Pyromaniac said:
Thanks everyone. So is it possible for me to make cable or chainsaw damascus without canister welding though?
Click to expand...

Cable yes, chainsaw, likely not (what will you fill the voids with?)
You can use kerosene as a flux and it doesn't ruin your forge.
 
I would suggest you get a few pieces of 1" cable pre-cut to length for making damascus. Several of the knife suppliers sell it in 12" pieces ready to weld up.
Weld the ends up solid, use the 20 Mule team borax, and learn to weld it up. You have to constantly tighten the twist by sticking the end in a vise and twisting while at welding heat, then forging it solid while turning the cable. It takes a lot of heats to get it all welded. As you go, it will sound and feel more and more solid. Eventually, if all goes right, the cable will become a round bar of steel. Hammer that into a knife. It will probably take about six pieces of cable before you get it right. There are those who use kerosene for welding flux, but I don't know how well it works for cable damascus.

To see how to really do it to the max:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...king-Cable-Damascus-No-Hammer-Marks-V2-Part-1
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...king-Cable-Damascus-No-Hammer-Marks-V2-Part-2
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...king-Cable-Damascus-No-Hammer-Marks-V2-Part-3
 
Hydrocarbon solvent wouldn't work for cable or chain; borax or canister is the way to go.

Fred
 
So cable damascus wouldn't be much of a problem. Just a little practice. How do you use kerosene for flux? I live in a small town where nearlyeveryone logs so there is an abundance of chainsaw chain. I was looking for things to make out of it a came upon a video of a guy just welding it together. No canister and filler, just fluxing it a beating the chain flat.

Here are the links to them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvaorfFRs38
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNOQsEQMeL4

I was thinking that the finished effect when eched was pretty cool and would be an easy source of cheap metal for practice. Only thing, in the video he tack welded the sides(I guess, look on the side and you can see a little weld) and I thought I would just wrap it in stainless wire.
 
Like many Youtube videos they can make bringing someone back to life look easy.

Welding chain is not easy, even with practice its not easy. If you can get it welded into a billet and made into a knife, its the hardest thing to grind on earth. It will eat new ceramic belts.
Cable without a canister is a bit easier.
 
I use 20 mule team borax for pattern welded damascus, but I think Anhydrous borax makes it easier to make cable or chain damascus.
 
Anhydrous borax makes life a lot easier, but is not absolutely necessary. It really makes chain and cable easier though. Cable is supper easy to weld. It's getting all 100 or so wires welded at once and without trapped slag that is the issue. Weld it up and forged as close to shape as possible, any flaws will be toward the center of the billet and the more you grind, the more likely to have a flaw. What I've done lately with wire rope is to make a stack of 3 wide and 3 tall for a total of 9 pieces of rope of about 7/8" diameter and smash the crap out of it in the press. Gotten pretty decent result from it that way, just a lot of reduction.
 
So is it possible to do like he does in the video and get a worth while product with out cold shunts and with a good weld?
 
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