Forging knives - steel???

K

K-Dog

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The railroad spike knives are really interesting. I understand the steel is on the soft side for a blade. Of all the scrap steel, or old tool how do you tell what it is? Example: Can you make a good knife from a crowbar, etc...?
 
I started out as a "steel detective" trying to figure out what steel I was working with. 95% of the steel I use now is graded steel. Admiral steel is a good place to start.
 
old files are w1 or w2, unless thier case hardened, then theyre crap. coil and leaf springs can be a number of steels but the most common is 5160. harrow disks are 1080, hay rake teeth are 1095, transmission shafts are 4140, ball bearings are 51200 but some are stainless and some are HSS. thats all the junk steel i can think of for now, and those are all good for making knives.
 
If you really want to play with scrap, perhaps the simplest way of getting an idea what the steel you have is spark testing. It won't necessarily give you a specific alloy but will give you an idea of alloying elements and carbon content.

ron
 
It would be nice to think that all car springs were 5160 (they usually are not), or all files are W1 and 1095 (who knows?), or all transmission shafts are 4140 (???),and all ball bearings are 52100 ( a better chance here)..... but the truth is that springs are made from about ten different steels, files can be anything from 1080, to W1,to case hardened 1040, and car parts can be almost any steel thinkable. The only way to know is to contact the manufacturer and find out what they use (if they actually make it themselves) or have it tested. A spark test will only tell you if there is a fair amount of carbon . It is only as accurate as the interpreters knowledge and eye is. Buying some 1080, 5160, O-1, etc. from a supplier is cheap, accurate, and will allow you to learn HT properly. Once you have attained a fair bit of experience, you can experiment with "found" steels.
Stacy
 
i was just basing what i said off of what was said in Wayne Goddards book "the wonder of knife making" and yes, he said that car springs were made of a number of steels and listed them, but he also said the most common was 5160. i didnt mean to mislead anyone, i was just sharing what i know from what ive read.
 
legato1 said:
i was just basing what i said off of what was said in Wayne Goddards book "the wonder of knife making" and yes, he said that car springs were made of a number of steels and listed them, but he also said the most common was 5160. i didnt mean to mislead anyone, i was just sharing what i know from what ive read.
Click to expand...

Don't worry, you didn't mislead anyone. You were very clear that while they MAY be 5160 they can as easily be any number of other steels as long as they meet the manufacturer's performance requirements for the item in question. I think it's fair to say in general that spring steels may be used to make knives and things like crowbars, hay rake teeth and harrow discs as well. The lure of being able to make useable tools from discarded items is undeniable, and should be indulged in I think, but it's almost always better to have a known steel for the knowledge alone of being able to heat treat it ahead of time.
 
To answer your question...Yes a Knife can be made from a crowbar.....A number of years ago a Gentleman won in the top 3 of the cutting competition at Batson's hammer in with a knife made from a crowbar and he even made a stand for that knife from the same kind of crowbar.....

If you want to use found steel be ready to Experiment with it to make a good serviceable knife,if you use known steel the same holds true...

Just have fun and enjoy yourself while you take this journey called Knifemaking.

Bruce
 
I wasn't picking on your answer directly, but expanding upon it.

The perceived misconception that all items of a certain type(files, springs,etc.) are the same steel still exists to a great degree. When Wayne Goddard wrote his book, the statements were closer to the truth. Now, they are half-true at best. When the charts listed in many sites and books were written, often at the turn of the last century, there were far fewer steels, and only a few imported steel products. Most items were always made from the same steel ( usually from the same factory and foundry) every time. Today, the parts are imported from all over he world, and the 'steel of the day' changes often.

This is one pit fall of posting advise based on hear-say (or hear-read?), and not based on practical experience and extensive studies. The internet is a great place to gain knowledge today, but there is as much (more?) bad information as there is good stuff. Recognizing the difference is a skill in itself. I have posted bad advise before when relaying things I read or was told, before trying them myself.

As to the standard defense for a particular material/procedure/etc....."John Q.Bladesmith made an XXX from a YYY and quenched it in ZZZ and it came out great....", well, that may be more due to the twenty years he has been making Xs from Ys and using Z to quench it in. I always point out that tracheotomy's have been done with a pocket knife and a ball point pen case, and that brain pressure has been relieved with a B&D drill and whiskey for an antiseptic.....Both done by people who only saw it done in a movie.....but I still prefer a sterile surgery, good equipment, and experienced surgeons.

None of that is to say you can't use a particular found steel to make wonderful knives...Richard Raymond is the king of found steel on these forums, but it is not the steel that makes his beautiful and useful knives, but Richard's skill and ability to know what he has and how to work it. You may also note that he is using predominately older materials.

When learning any skill it is best to eliminate as many possible problems as you can. The quality and make-up of the steel is one that is easy to deal with - use a known steel. Now, a known steel is not necessarily a bar from Admiral or Kelly Cruples, but a piece that you know is of a certain composition...and reliably consistent. John Deere load shafts are a good example of this. They are (or at least were as of the last I got) always the same steel - 5160.
If a particular brand of crowbar/file/sawblade is tested or the composition is known, then it is fine to use it. Problem is all crowbars look pretty much alike, so who knows? Just be aware that saying all load shafts are 5160 is not true.
The other problem is misinterpretation by the reader of the information. If J.Q.Bladesmith writes in his book that he had his saw blades tested and they were L-6, Ralph D. Nooby may go out and take the bi-metal saw blade off his dad's sawz-all and try to make a knife out of it, saying," J.Q.B. says it is L-6."

"Knowledge is valuable -
Experience is a good teacher -
Personal knowledge is invaluable -
Personal experience is the best teacher."

Stacy
 
Thanks for the responses. I got it. Try it and see, but if you want to know the knive's characteristics, buy a known piece of stock.
 
legato1 said:
old files are w1 or w2, unless thier case hardened, then theyre crap. coil and leaf springs can be a number of steels but the most common is 5160. harrow disks are 1080, hay rake teeth are 1095, transmission shafts are 4140, ball bearings are 51200 but some are stainless and some are HSS. thats all the junk steel i can think of for now, and those are all good for making knives.
Click to expand...

Only ball bearings under a 1/2" cross section are 52100. Stainless ball bearings are very rare. I can't think of one bearing part number that uses HSS. Most through hardened bearings are made from ASTM 485-1 and ASTM 485-2. The ASTM steels have higher manganese and silicon than 52100 for increased hardenability.

I've had files made from 1095.

I think it's risky to generalize about what a particular machine part is made of. The best advice is to not use "mystery" steel.

I work for a major bearing company, so if you need to know what a particular bearing is made from, just email me.
 
I really don't want to bother with discussion any more than to point out a crucial point about source literature. There are many lists, charts and tables in metallugical texts and steel publications that will list a steel stype and then give a list of items beside it e.g.: "L6 - Circular saws, Wood cutting band saws, Chipper & planer blades, Form Rolls, Straightening Rolls, Brake Dies, Shear Blades, Machine Tool Parts, Collets, Chucks, Pinions" These resources are meant to give examples of the kind of applications that this chemistry would have desireable properties for. These things are consistantly and continually misinterpreted and read backwards by knifemakers- they do not list the steels that those items will most likely be made from!!! The manufacturer of any item will choose whatever alloy they care to use and the primary consideration will always be cost effectiveness over anything on those lists or what knifemakers my wish them to be. If the tool or part can do the exact same job with case hardened mild stock you can bet the manufacturer will use it before they will spring for $$$$ tool steel or even high carbon alloys. Also bear in mind that foreign manufacturers may not even give a rip about AISI or SAE designations. Please keep this in mind when considering this or the possible sources for any other published material on the topic.
 
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