Forging red short steels "O1, O2, 52100"

Greenberg Woods

Greenberg Woods

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Dec 27, 2013
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Hey guys, I had some questions about redshirt steels. I know some steels like o1 and 52100 are redshirt, I.e they can crumble and break when forged too hot.

So what's the advice? Just forge them cooler?

If the steel enters the brittle redshirt range and is not hit until it drops below it, will it be fine?

What makes a steel red short?

Any general advice for working these higher alloy carbon steels
 
OK seriously though, regardless what steel you're using, it's always good practice to manage good temp control.
 
You must learn the steel you have , forging temps , HTtemps ,etc Short means brittle .Going into the short range invites disaster ! Proper temperature control is the answer !
 
Just forge in the proper forging range. It isn't really a problem most of the time, as the steel cools pretty fast when pulled from the forge. The range for these red-short steels is between 1900°F and 1600°F. That is the orange to bright red range. You want no yellow color, as that is too hot. Once it drops to bright red, stick it back in the forge. You should not forge the steel down into the dull red color. My feeling is that more damage is likely to be done by forging too cool than by forging too hot. Metallurgically, forging below 1500°F is not a good practice. I know that certain people teach to forge the steel down until it is black, but there can be serious disruption of the grain boundaries from forging too cold.

Steels with less alloying can be worked in the 2100° to 1600° range. This is yellow down to bright red.
 
Ben, are you experiencing issues with these steels as you're forging them? Show an example of what's happening!
 
I've only overheated 52100 a couple of times... both when working outdoors in the sun. It was a lot hotter than I thought, and boys does it crumble when you hit it! Inside the shop, it never happens.
I have had CruForgeV fall apart when moving it much at a forge welding heat. Kinda cracked through and fell apart like a brick of hard cheese.
Learning experiences all, and one of them was expensive! Not too hard to avoid, though.
 
My experience with O1 is that it should never be heated above a bright orange or you run the risk of destroying the steel. It'll crumble under your hammer, likely you'll even notice the steel is toast as you bring it out of the forge.

The same goes for forging too cold and causing cracks. O1 will air harden once it's below a red heat, and any forging after that will only build up stresses in the steel. You can always heat up the O1 again and again to forge it but forging it too cold will make your blades warp in HT.

Like others have said, at bright orange take it out of the forge, smack it around as hard as you can (it's hard to move, even at heat), stop once you're at a red heat, and shove it back into the forge. This steel loves being constantly hot until you're done forging.

PS:Never ever ever ever touch O1 to water.
 
I have seen W2 round bar crumble when left in a coal forge for too long. It was at Baston's and when the guy pulled the bar out of the forge, the last 4 inches were missing.
 
As said earlier, the forging range for O-1 is 1900F max, 1600F min. Above that it may start to crumble, below and it may crack. It doesn't take long for that drop to occur, so it takes many heats to get a round bar flattened. This is where a press or power hammer is a blessing.
 
I had the problem of over heating 52100 but dropped the temp and all is good. Where in still learning is forging CPM3V, that stuff just can't take the high heat and if it moves easy when forging then it's to late and it's cracked/crumbled.
 
Greenberg Woods said:
Hey guys, I had some questions about redshirt steels. I know some steels like o1 and 52100 are redshirt, I.e they can crumble and break when forged too hot.

So what's the advice? Just forge them cooler?

If the steel enters the brittle redshirt range and is not hit until it drops below it, will it be fine?

What makes a steel red short?

Any general advice for working these higher alloy carbon steels
Click to expand...

I think you could try other steel grades, like O2 steel, A2 steel. Then you could compare different results with different steel properties. And we can also supply all those steel materials.

Hope it helps, thanks.

Jeremy
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
As said earlier, the forging range for O-1 is 1900F max, 1600F min. Above that it may start to crumble, below and it may crack.
Click to expand...

What about forge welding? I have a couple of pieces that I made of O1/15N20 that I am trying to turn into what I call an "explosion" pattern (as demonstrated in, I think, Gunther Lobach's book,"Damascus Steel: Theory and Practice") for a guard.

VNrpwvw.jpg


I'm pretty sure I was above 1900F while welding and no crumbling. Did I get lucky? Do I not have a good eye for color? or is the steel no good for a blade now?
Thanks
 
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I haven't observed red short steels to suffer a whole lot from being forge welded in thin layers with other steels. I've built billets with CruForgeV just fine, welding at probably 2300 degrees max, with no problems. I've used 52100 as a core layer for stainless san mai, which gets welded up probably upwards of 2400 degrees with a soak, and no problems either. I have observed crumbling more when the steel in question is alone, or constitutes a very thick piece in a weld.
For instance, I was welding CruV edges onto a twistcore billet, at about 3/8" thick, and the heat at that point made it crumble.
Also, I think pressing rather than hammering, and forging gradually and evenly help.
 
Putting O1 in damascus has never been a problem. Also forging the blade on integrals in 3 heats on the powerhammer is very doable.
 
I did a Damascus mix with and used 01 as a core and in drawing out the O1 cracked. Worked out rather cool actually. I twisted it and made some Flint strikers out of it and the cracks opened when twisting and had a cool look. Sorry if that did not make sence, I have been really sick this week and really out of it.
 
weo said:
What about forge welding? I have a couple of pieces that I made of O1/15N20 that I am trying to turn into what I call an "explosion" pattern (as demonstrated in, I think, Gunther Lobach's book,"Damascus Steel: Theory and Practice") for a guard.

VNrpwvw.jpg


I'm pretty sure I was above 1900F while welding and no crumbling. Did I get lucky? Do I not have a good eye for color? or is the steel no good for a blade now?
Thanks
Click to expand...

That's really sweet looking. I will have to look it up.
 
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