Forging / sanmai welding CPM3V?

[JTknives]

Oh!!! Yeah I forgot! That’s why the super mystical Japanese swords of centuries ago, could cut through anything! It’s because of the intensified super magic forging power of awesomeness!!

Uhg! Take some time and learn about steel & alloy. This is referring to parts made by forging vs CASTING! Little lesson for you....since I’m a gunsmith/firearm’s builder. Several of the firearms I build use RECEIVERS.... sometimes an upper and a lower. Forged receivers are always preferred to CAST receivers, as the cast can have air pockets, slight imperfections and almost microscopic deviations which can result in cracking.

But NOW....the new thing is BILLET RECEIVERS. These are CNC machined from a solid block(billet) of material, in really expensive 4-axis machines. Some are now saying these BILLET units are even stronger than their forged counterparts.

High alloy knife steel, as we get it in billets/sheets whatever...is NOT cast! It is hot rolled to, and then sheared/cut to sizes we buy. Guess what the hot rolling of the steel is??? FORGING!

And that ends the lesson for today!

Ok we will skip over the part where you claim to be an almighty gunsmith because you assemble LEGO guns. This does not impress guys that have actually designed and built guns from scratch.

I’m not trying to start a forging vs stock removal fight. I’m just trying to point out that there are benefits gained by forging blades to shape. But I digress, You completely missed what I was quoting and why. Forging alines the grain lines or flow in a direction along the profile of the part or blade. It has been proven that the alinent of these grain lines increases strength. And that cutting through them by machining or grinding reduces strength. It’s also not just castings that are forged, Lots of things are drop forged from stock. But in a way, you yourself proved that I was right in your last statement. You said knife steels are rolled which is forging. So A, we know these “super” steels can be forged and B, it’s a benafit to the alloys property’s. The issue with this rolled stock is the grain lines are all going one direction, for the most part. So when a knife is cut out of this stock you are cutting through all thoes grain lines. On the other hand if you forged the blade to shape you are moving the grain flow along the profile of the blade. If the direction and flow of these grain lines don’t matter then why do thy in testing? Take the Charpy toughness testing that Larrin is doing here. He says and I quote
“The sample dimensions would need to be as follows:
2.5 x 10 x 55 mm, with 55mm being in the rolling direction.” Because the rolling direction affects the grain lines which affects toughness. Mic - Drop

 

[hugofeynman]

Although well done Drop forging usually makes the strongest pieces, most high performance Knives are made by stock removal from a piece of steel that was already forged in the mill to a given thickness and the blank should be cut parallel to the rolling direction of the steel. If the knife blank is cut this way and the steel is from a reputable source (and the heat treatment is done right), I’m sure there is very little difference between stock removal and DROP Forged (closed die forging) Knives. The regular forging with a hammer and a vice may or may not make a stronger blade, it’s a hit and miss game!

 

[One Armed]

Although well done Drop forging usually makes the strongest pieces, most high performance Knives are made by stock removal from a piece of steel that was already forged in the mill to a given thickness and the blank should be cut parallel to the rolling direction of the steel. If the knife blank is cut this way and the steel is from a reputable source (and the heat treatment is done right), I’m sure there is very little difference between stock removal and DROP Forged (closed die forging) Knives. The regular forging with a hammer and a vice may or may not make a stronger blade, it’s a hit and miss game!

At least you get it hugofeynman.
Some “ABC..uh..SCBD SMITHS” live in a dream world though.

Lego guns. Those who know me get what ridiculous accusation that is! I’ll leave it there.

You are now part of my list. ....IGNORED

 

[DeadboxHero]

Ok we will skip over the part where you claim to be an almighty gunsmith because you assemble LEGO guns. This does not impress guys that have actually designed and built guns from scratch.

I’m not trying to start a forging vs stock removal fight. I’m just trying to point out that there are benefits gained by forging blades to shape. But I digress, You completely missed what I was quoting and why. Forging alines the grain lines or flow in a direction along the profile of the part or blade. It has been proven that the alinent of these grain lines increases strength. And that cutting through them by machining or grinding reduces strength. It’s also not just castings that are forged, Lots of things are drop forged from stock. But in a way, you yourself proved that I was right in your last statement. You said knife steels are rolled which is forging. So A, we know these “super” steels can be forged and B, it’s a benafit to the alloys property’s. The issue with this rolled stock is the grain lines are all going one direction, for the most part. So when a knife is cut out of this stock you are cutting through all thoes grain lines. On the other hand if you forged the blade to shape you are moving the grain flow along the profile of the blade. If the direction and flow of these grain lines don’t matter then why do thy in testing? Take the Charpy toughness testing that Larrin is doing here. He says and I quote
“The sample dimensions would need to be as follows:
2.5 x 10 x 55 mm, with 55mm being in the rolling direction.” Because the rolling direction affects the grain lines which affects toughness. Mic - Drop

Isn't there an increased risk if decarbing and burning off the alloy? Not sure if I'd want to buy 3v from someone that did 60 heats to the blade to shape the grain into the blade profile. I'd be interested to see a test between the two in a small knife.

 

[Natlek]

Isn't there an increased risk if decarbing and burning off the alloy? Not sure if I'd want to buy 3v from someone that did 60 heats to the blade to shape the grain into the blade profile. I'd be interested to see a test between the two in a small knife.

If that happens to 3V , then any damascus steel is plastic at the end , according to you

 

[JTknives]

I have seen your stuff on the 1911 forum David Hoback. Why do you have two accounts here? I thought your Davidhoback account was banned.

 

[JTknives]

Isn't there an increased risk if decarbing and burning off the alloy? Not sure if I'd want to buy 3v from someone that did 60 heats to the blade to shape the grain into the blade profile. I'd be interested to see a test between the two in a small knife.

It would be interesting to ask larrin about this. I’m not an expert by any means, I just know what other experts say. But he would be the guy to ask about such things.

 

[Natlek]

At least you get it hugofeynman.
Some “ABC..uh..SCBD SMITHS” live in a dream world though.

Lego guns. Those who know me get what ridiculous accusation that is! I’ll leave it there.

You are now part of my list. ....IGNORED

I've been here for nearly four years , many experienced knife makers share their/hard learned/ knowledge with us who ask a million questions The way you communicate with your colleagues is wrong my friend .This is quiet place where we communicate in a civilized way and without insult each other
Ignored.....................

 

[shqxk]

Isn't there an increased risk if decarbing and burning off the alloy? Not sure if I'd want to buy 3v from someone that did 60 heats to the blade to shape the grain into the blade profile. I'd be interested to see a test between the two in a small knife.

This is definitely one of the main issue of forging high alloy steel but I'm sure it can be prevent or even eliminated unless stainless or pm ss damascus wouldn't get very popular like these days...

I do believe that further forging can improve mechanical properties of steel when done properly ... strength in one direction or reduce impurity for example.

 

[Larrin]

I'm not an expert on decarb. More time at high temperature with oxygen means more decarb.

 

[DeadboxHero]

This is definitely one of the main issue of forging high alloy steel but I'm sure it can be prevent or even eliminated unless stainless or pm ss damascus wouldn't get very popular like these days...

I do believe that further forging can improve mechanical properties of steel when done properly ... strength in one direction or reduce impurity for example.

I don't think it's as universal for all steels. Not sure if I'm going to get improved performance from CPM 10v if I forge it.

Either way it would be interesting to see a side by side test with something simpler like 3v forged vs not forged.

 

[Britt_Askew]

I have seen your stuff on the 1911 forum David Hoback. Why do you have two accounts here? I thought your Davidhoback account was banned.

Is this true ? lol
your quote-
If you see me posting, remind me to STFU & leave.

 

[hugofeynman]

You’re right, DeadboxHero , cpm10v is perfect as it is (if the knife blank is cut parallel to the rolling direction of the steel), it was forged by the best at the mill under perfect conditions, with constant pressure. A hammer and an anvil would ruin it!