Forgot to thermal cycle

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Jun 29, 2014
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I'm working on 2 forged chef knives in 1084 right now and somehow just quenched them both without remembering to thermal cycle them first. How bad of a mistake is that, and how should I go about fixing it? Darn brain farts. I've read that this will leave excessive grain growth but I'm not really sure how that would manifest itself.

As an aside (but maybe directly related?) they both had some warpage after the quench. I left about .030" on the edge, so I would have thought that was enough meat left to avoid that... Best ways to straighten?
 
Read my post in the recent 3v heat treatment. We need to establish what terms mean what. “Normalizing” is way different than “thermal cycling”.

Technically speaking any heat that a blade undergoes is a thermal cycle to include tempers.

But for us knife makers they are 2 different operations going 2 different things.

After forging you NEED to normalize. For 1084 this is 1600-1650f. Air cool only. This may cause grain growth in 1084 especially if there is no Tungsten or vanadium to pin grain boundaries (keep grain small). The 1084 circulating has a small vanadium count. Good.

After normalizing, then “thermal cycle” at 1500f no more than 3 times. Air cool only, quench on the 3rd cycle if you like. Then harden at 1500f, quench.

To be on the safe side what I would do (since I am unaware of your exact process thus far)...
Normalize. 1600f. Equalize temp throughout blade and air cool.

Thermal cycle. 1500f 3 times. Air cool only/quench on the 3rd cycle if you like.

Harden: 1500f, equalize temp throughout blade, quench. Temper.

The normalizing heat will erase anything you have done previously (provided good forging techniques)

.030” is close to minimum but ok. To keep blades straight there are a few ways to do that. A search of this forum will bring up countless threads on that subject. Bottom line, you have time between 900f and roughly 200f to straighten with gloved hand or by the 3 point clamp method upon temper.

However, Normalizing will reduce the stress as well, and you may find it to be straight out of the quench after normalizing and cycling/quenching, provided you quench properly. (Up and down or edge to spine. Never side to side).
 
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Read my post in the recent 3v heat treatment. We need to establish what terms mean what. “Normalizing” is way different than “thermal cycling”.

Technically speaking any heat that a blade undergoes is a thermal cycle to include tempers.

But for us knife makers they are 2 different operations going 2 different things.

After forging you NEED to normalize. For 1084 this is 1600-1650f. Air cool only. This may cause grain growth in 1084 especially if there is no Tungsten or vanadium to pin grain boundaries (keep grain small). The 1084 circulating has a small vanadium count. Good.

After normalizing, then “thermal cycle” at 1500f no more than 3 times. Air cool only, quench on the 3rd cycle if you like. Then harden at 1500f, quench.

To be on the safe side what I would do (since I am unaware of your exact process thus far)...
Normalize. 1600f. Equalize temp throughout blade and air cool.

Thermal cycle. 1500f 3 times. Air cool only/quench on the 3rd cycle if you like.

Harden: 1500f, equalize temp throughout blade, quench. Temper.

The normalizing heat will erase anything you have done previously (provided good forging techniques)

.030” is close to minimum but ok. To keep blades straight there are a few ways to do that. A search of this forum will bring up countless threads on that subject. Bottom line, you have time between 900f and roughly 200f to straighten with gloved hand or by the 3 point clamp method upon temper.

However, Normalizing will reduce the stress as well, and you may find it to be straight out of the quench after normalizing and cycling/quenching, provided you quench properly. (Up and down or edge to spine. Never side to side).

Thanks guys!

That's pretty much my normal procedure, but for some reason this time I just got ahead of myself and went straight to the quench. Stupid! I'll go back and normalize and thermal cycle again. Thanks for the help!
 
You are wise to go back and thermal cycle.

I mostly agree with Stu. I just leave out one of his grain refinement thermal cycles because the final quench counts as one.

Forge
Normalize @ 1650F
Grain refine @ 1500F, cool to magnetic
Grain refine @ 1500F, quench in oil
Heat to 1300F, twice, to redneck "subcritical anneal"
Work, drill grind, etc..
Final Harden @ 1475F, quenched in oil.
Temper
 
The only thing I'd do differently than Mr Rider would be the straighten right after the quench. Much too risky for me after breaking a couple of blades. My preferred method is to try tempering between 2 pieces of angle iron with coins to shim as needed, or to straighten after the tempering cycles using a torch to heat the spine to yellow, then correct the warps.
 
You are wise to go back and thermal cycle.

I mostly agree with Stu. I just leave out one of his grain refinement thermal cycles because the final quench counts as one.

Forge
Normalize @ 1650F
Grain refine @ 1500F, cool to magnetic
Grain refine @ 1500F, quench in oil
Heat to 1300F, twice, to redneck "subcritical anneal"
Work, drill grind, etc..
Final Harden @ 1475F, quenched in oil.
Temper

Nice!

BTW I just read through your old post about straightening blades during the temper from quite a few years back and tried it on these knives with great luck. Thanks! :thumbsup:
 
The only thing I'd do differently than Mr Rider would be the straighten right after the quench. Much too risky for me after breaking a couple of blades. My preferred method is to try tempering between 2 pieces of angle iron with coins to shim as needed, or to straighten after the tempering cycles using a torch to heat the spine to yellow, then correct the warps.

The straightening is after the quench but while the blade is still very hot with a gloved hand pressing it against the anvil. If you have something that can’t be corrected with that, I’d do it during the temper. I haven’t had one break yet, knock wood.
 
The straightening is after the quench but while the blade is still very hot with a gloved hand pressing it against the anvil. If you have something that can’t be corrected with that, I’d do it during the temper. I haven’t had one break yet, knock wood.
Hey Josh... I would not touch your blade to the anvil during an interrupted quench... that is one big heat sink. Try laying a 2x4 on top of it and pressing your blade against that. I have a pair of aluminum angle irons attached to a vice and often clamp the blade straight after an interrupt.
Look under the kiln.
IMG_8280.JPG
 
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Hey Josh... I would not touch your blade to the anvil during an interrupted quench... that is one big heat sink. Try laying a 2x4 on top of it and pressing your blade against that. I have a pair of aluminum angle irons attached to a vice and often clamp the blade straight after an interrupt.
Look under the kiln.
View attachment 971098
Oohh, nice setup.
Thanks for the advice.
Where did you get the unicorn pee????
 
I picked up the warp correction after reading about it on the forums here a while back. Maybe I’ve just been lucky (actually just did it about an hour ago).
If it’s not good practice I’ll definitely not do it anymore. I don’t want to mislead anyone either.
 
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