Form and Function

Joined
Apr 15, 1999
Messages
1,442
I'm not setting foot back in that "Fav Neck Knife" thread, but I don't want this topic to die. Here are some thoughts:

Sometimes I feel as though "looks" or "style" are a taboo topic on these forums. Yes, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and this is a very subjective area. But that's not the reason why I feel the topic is avoided. Rather, I feel if you should even (gasp!) hint at considering a knife's looks, you will be branded as "not a serious user" or even "not tactical." What kind of narcissisistic creampuff cares what a knife looks like?

Why do we ignore form? I feel that all good designs (of anything, not just knives) take form into account as a necessary part of good function. Even something as raw and functional as a Bridgeport mill shows attention to form in its curves and details. A good designer puts beauty into their work around and through the demands of form. Yet some folks here treat considering form as if it were heresy. Can you imagine looking at a car in that way? Attacking a Porsche 911 for its "functionless" hood profile? Or a Corvette for its "small" and "inefficient" tail-lights?

There has been a movement over the last decade to divorce form and function, and to sell the lie that ugly=functional. Some makers would have you believe that before the advent of the "tactical" knife, knives weren't "made to be used" and that they compromised their function with fancy embellishments and useless features. Knives were mere playthings until the arrival of 1/4" thick, chisel-ground, tanto-pointed, serrated-handled, bead-blasted knives made for "real use."

I cannot stress too much what sheer hogwash this is. ALL knives are "made to be used" (except perhaps some pure art pieces - but are they knives?). Many of the "fancy" features of traditional knives actually increase function: mirror polishes resist corrosion better than any other finish, light filework promotes grip without digging into the hand, tapered tangs improve balance, and fitted guards are more effective and durable than those formed by just the tang or handle.

I concede that not all "fancy" features improve function. Engraving, while rarely compromising function, rarely improves it. And surely that cocobolo handle is a shameless fashion statement when G-10 is available. Is this so terrible? Even "Wild" Bill Hickok carried ivory-handled Colts - was he any less of a "serious" lawman for it?

If any further proof is needed that "functional" and "tactical" are two separate worlds, compare the knives of Ed Fowler to those of your favorite "tactical" maker. Which do you feel shows a better understanding of what makes a strong, tough, comfortable using knife?

Form and function combine in all good designs. Examine, if you will, Lynn Griffith's work. Though some may not see it, I feel Lynn has an excellent eye for form. His shapes are curvy yet simple. Lines are clean and compelling, never broken or jarring. The full flat grinds are as attractive as they are efficient for cutting. The shape and construction may be simple, but is a lean and powerful simplicity - the mark of "exactly enough", not "too little effort." He has even been straightforward in admitting that his finish is applied mainly for cost reasons and a higher finish is available for a price, rather than hiding behind "low reflection" nonsense. It is comical to me that Lynn somehow ended up as the target for those who would attack the ugly, blunt, "pure function" aspect of the "tactical" movement - when his work teaches a lesson in form that many "tactical" makers (some of whom have their own forums here) could learn from.

To sum up:

If you think that "tactical" knives have a monopoly on function, wake up! Neither "beautiful" nor "fancy" means a knife is any less of a worker.

If you feel that form and function are opposing forces, think again. They are two strands in a weave.

If you feel that Lynn Griffith is the embodiment of the stark and ugly functionality of the "tactical" movement, look around. His knives area a lesson in form and simple beauty that other "tactical" makers (and all of us) should pay close attention to.

These are my opinion. Thanks for reading. Curious to hear what you think (don't hurt me too bad
wink.gif
).


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-Corduroy
"Why else would a bear want a pocket?"

Little Bear Knives
Drew Gleason:
adg@student.umass.edu
 
Drew,
Very well said! I personally think a Bridgeport IS a thing of beauty!! I will be beautifying my shop with one very soon....
I look at knives from what I would call a makers point of view. I'm not all that interested in multi-blades but I enjoy visiting Bill Simons shop and watching him make multiblades and envy his talent!
I realy think that the Biohazard folder is beyond extreme but admired it for its fit and finish.
Whenever I look at a custom knife, I'm drawn to the areas that give ME a hard time as far as construction. I study how the maker achieved a certain finish, pinned a bolster or tapered a tang. It doesnt' matter if it's an all out tactical or an investment folder. They all have a certain beauty to be appreciated.
Neil


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Just updated 10/31!! New Knives, New Pics!!!
http://www.geocities.com/Eureka/Meeting/5520/index.html

 
Drew,
Great arguement!
What are you, a lawyer?

I agree with you.
I'm not going back to that thread as it's getting real ugly and I don't wanna lose respect that I have for some of the participents. It's too bad the male ego is soooo fragile.




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If a person with multiple personalities threatens suicide, is that considered a hostage situation?

 
I want to say for all to read that, embelishment is not a crime. I have no problem with it. I can appreciate it. There are times, when embellishment can ruin the appearance of a knife. Many times it can enhance it. I have seen many gaudy knives, with gold, ivory, jewels, and damascus. I have also seen many beautiful knives with all of these features. Expensive materials, do not in my opinion, make a knife pretty. They can help, though. Some knives look gorgeous with a mirror finish, some look cheap. I have seen fantastic hand rubbed finishes, and I have seem some that look a bunch of scratches on a blade. I have seen tactical knives that have terrible grindlines, sloppy fit, and horrible looks. I have also seen that, in expensive art knives. We all have are own criteria's for defining beauty. I appreciate all well designed knives. I like the look of a beadblasted blade. That is me. I know my knives aren't pleasing to everyone. They are however pleasing to me, and at least a few others. I, like many on the list, am a knifemaker. I was however a knife user and collecter, long before I began to make knives. I make knives because I love knives. I own a forged damascus bowie by John Fitch, a D-2 bird and trout knife with oosic handle by Ferguson, and a handful of other custom knives. I currently have a titanium credit card knife on order with Neil Blackwood (aka Dr. Lathe), and later will be ordering one of his tanto's. I appreciate classic designed folders, and have owned several by Paul Myers, and hope to own more again (kick myself for selling them). Point is I love many types of knives. I think this is a strong bond for all of us on the forums. Any one that loves knives, can't be all that bad. I am like anyone else, I have bad days. If I get my feelings hurt, and say mean things, please forgive me. I will always apologize, if its appropiate.

On a seperate note, Thank you Corduroyyour comments about my knives, mean a lot to me.

------------------
Lynn Griffith
Available knives now listed on
My website
GriffithKN@aol.com

 
Well I guess we know where you stand.

BTW Why dont you be a man and tell us who's work you think need Lynns touch..giggle
As for Lynns work he does a fine job ... His knives are nice and the lines look great.
BUT there is a problem.
Lynn is insecure about his work.
He feels we (other makers) all need to tell him his work is great.

And as for me I will explain what a gray turd is.
There are folders out in the great tactical folding knife market when folded are square like a box and look like a gray turd. Do you make folders LYNN

We all appreciate your comments on Lynns work . Now if we could just get him to believe that he needs to let his work speak for it self.

The problems with Lynns comments in the neck knife thread were that he answered a question with an answer that NOBODY asked. Go look ... Most of us (other knifemakers who are tired of bitching him out) feel that lynn does just what he does to create the feelings that you are having right now. A feeling of pity on Lynn to make us (OTHER MAKERS) look like bad guys so he looks like a hero. We know his MO.
His posts are delibrate to interupt the tread so you see LYNN when he gets yelled at by the person tring to gather knife information. Or his posts are redundant.
I would have to post several times to show the number of time he gets blasted from other makers and people who are looking for answers that he interupts. We feel its not because he makes a bad knife. Its because he wants you folks to see us as bad boys to make him look like CLEAN JEAN>>>>> Well if you want him to play YOU like a fiddle .... Ok by me.
I wont put up with it.

As far as your comments heres what I think
Until your hand has touched and felt the movement, form, function and STYLE of a knifemakers creation ... You dont have a clue as to what the knife is really all about.
Until you question the maker of the knife as to its purpose and features you have no idea what it is all about.
Yes there is another standard in knife making . This one is most often missed...reliablity

A good maker will work all the bugs out of his product with testers before a full release to the market. Steady improvment is what life and knifemaking is all about .
As for options sir I believe most makers offer different levels of fit and finish . This is nothing new.

I dont think gathering pity, and playing clients for suckers for your own good is the way life should be, nor will good knife makers who have to see this kind of crap all the time put up with it.

Hope this explains my position on my comments in the neck knife thread.

As for Lynns direct remark about DAMASCUS GOLD CARVING ECT... Well we all know this is directed towards me.. So as we did in the other thread We will explain to LYNN what is WHAT.
Lynn
MY damascus, gold and carved knives are fully functional. They really work LYNN ... They are of high quality materials and the function fit and finish is the best that I could do at the time they were created.
I think the problem here is not what you believe Lynn . It is once again the things you cannot do that eats at you .

Yes Lynn I call a spade a spade. This is what real men do . Backbiting is not a common pratice with me. I dont beat around the bush tring to hide the nasty sh_t I have to say about another maker in a long boring post and gather more pity. First you accuse me of farming out my work to cnc,laser, ect and I shut you down flat . BTW I didnt see you coming to my shop LYNN so I could once again get your approval of the way I build knives.

Now your saying my work is sh_t and the fit and finish is bad, the function sucks,
and good materials dont make a good knife.


NOW,,,,,,,, ONCE AGAIN ... I will ask you for the ...LAST... time.........
Please leave me and your inuindos about my work out of your posts..
The NEXT LEVEL is not where YOU want this to go.



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Web Site At www.infinet.com/~browzer/bldesmth.html
Take a look!!!


[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 14 November 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 14 November 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 14 November 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 14 November 1999).]
 
Anybody read any good books lately?



------------------
Hoodoo

Doubt grows with knowledge.
--Goethe
 
Darrel,
You are mistaken. I was not referring to your work, when I made any comments. When I referred to my not using CNC, I was referring only to me, not to you. When I said I did not buy parts, I was saying just that. I know nothing of your methods for producing your knives. I have no interest to. You have a market for your knives. That is great. I have nothing against the type of knives that you make. I had no problem with you. I have no problem with you now. If you have a need to try and discredit me, then fine. If you are determined not to like me, then you won't. Such is life.

------------------
Lynn Griffith
Available knives now listed on
My website
GriffithKN@aol.com

 
Lynn
At least I have the cahonas to say you make a nice looking knife. As for discrediting you no that is not my intent. You have had several scraps here in the forums with your practics. I have had emails about other folks who have had to tell you where to go.
So your record speaks for itself.
I am not a perfect person . But I will NOT sit back and alow YOU to talk in circles covering up with long posts CRAP about my knives.
I hope you read the last lines of my last post. Please believe ever word I said !

As for your last post still gathering pity and hiding behind the no body likes Lynn game I see. Lynn I like you and your knives. What play do you have for me now?



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Web Site At www.infinet.com/~browzer/bldesmth.html
Take a look!!!




 
I agree with you Corduroy. Very well said.

As for Darrel and Lynn: You both do excellent work. I don't think either of you meant anything as a personal attack towards each other. Please, both of you, apologize and get back to sharing the wealth of knowledge and experience that you BOTH have. Your little feud will only cause everyone here to look
upon you BOTH as immature even though you are not.

BTW, I think that BOTH Darrel and Lynn have
married function with style very well.

My $.02
Barry
 
To paraphrase Kipling . . .

There are nine and sixty ways of constructing vorpal blades, and every single one of them is right!"

In the Neolithic Age by Rudyard Kipling - 1895

In the Neolithic Age savage warfare did I wage
For food and fame and woolly horses' pelt.
I was singer to my clan in that dim, red Dawn of Man,
And I sang of all we fought and feared and felt.

Yea, I sang as now I sing, when the Prehistoric spring
Made the piled Biscayan ice-pack split and shove;
And the troll and gnome and dwerg,
and the gods of Cliff and Berg
Were about me and beneath me and above.

But a rival, of Solutre, told the tribe my style was outre--
'Neath a tomahawk, of diorite, he fell
And I left my views on Art,
barbed and tanged below the heart
Of a mammothistic etcher at Grenelle.


Then I stripped them, scalp from skull,
and my hunting-dogs fed full,
And their teeth I threaded neatly on a thong;
And I wiped my mouth and said,
"It is well that they are dead,
For I know my work is right and theirs was wrong."

But my Totem saw the shame;
from his ridgepole-shrine he came,
And he told me in a vision of the night: --
"There are nine and sixty ways
of constructing tribal lays,
"And every single one of them is right!"

. . . . . . .

Then the silence closed upon me
till They put new clothing on me
Of whiter, weaker fresh and bone more frail;
And I stepped beneath Time's finger,
once again a tribal singer,
And a minor poet certified by Traill!

Still they skirmish to and fro,
men my messmates on the snow
When we headed off the aurochs turn for turn;
When the rich Allobrogenses never kept amanuenses,
And our only plots were piled in lakes at Berne.

Still a cultured Christian age
sees us scuffle, squeak, and rage,
Still we pinch and slap and jabber, scratch and dirk;
Still we let our business slide
as we dropped the half-dressed hide
To show a fellow-savage how to work.

Still the world is wondrous large,
seven seas from marge to marge
And it holds a vast of various kinds of men;
And the wildest dreams of Kew
are the facts of Khatmandhu
And the crimes of Clapham chaste in Martaban.

Here's my wisdom for your use,
as I learned it when the moose
And the reindeer roared where Paris roars to-night:
"There are nine and sixty ways of constructing tribal lays,
"And every single one of them is right!"


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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001


[This message has been edited by James Mattis (edited 15 November 1999).]

[This message has been edited by James Mattis (edited 15 November 1999).]
 
BillyJoeBobDan, my neighbor, read me that same thing tonight after reading this thread.

Well said, James.
 
okay all, this will be my final post to these forums.

When I first got here I was attacked from a dealer I never met or even heard of, yet he seemed to know alot more about me and my work than I did. Said my time was past and I could'nt even give my interframes away. That was real news to me since i have none laying around the house here and don't have much trouble selling all I make. Then he insulted my new design in all stainless saying it was'nt worth the price I had on it. Then I went to the Art Knife Invitational this Oct. 30 and sold out in a couple hours and had 4 all steel knives and they sold immediately for much more than the price I put on that first one and I got orders for 2 more from guys that did'nt get any of the ones I had there. So where did this guy get off not ever having even met me or looked at any of my knives??

Lynn, Darrel,
if you two wish to continue acting like children in the public eye, have a ball! I no
longer wish to be a part of this kind of crap
in front of buyers and collectors that keep us all working. I think it looks pretty damn unprofessional.

I agree with points from both of you but going over this in 3 seperate threads is a little over doing it. If one maker likes making grey turds then who should care? If another likes making fancy art pieces, so what? To each his own.

I have always been willing to help new makers and have had several in my shop and we built a folder from start to finish. I would be glad to help here but not with this crap going on. I have had replies saying I did'nt
do that either.

If this is what blade forums is about, then I have come to the wrong place. I have had enough of this.

Tim Herman
 
Form follows function. If done with style it may enhance the value. Tastes vary widely. If I see good craftsmanship, I always take a closer look.
 
Well, 'cuz these two, of all makers, should be the last two to argue on this issue. Lynn thought something Darrel said applied to him when it didn't and Darrel never meant to say that it did.

When I look at Lynn's Patrolman, I see a beautiful design. It has got all the elements that usually result in a wonderfully ergonomic and efficient cutting tool. The materials are right too, bead blasted micarta and ATS-34 are both excellent for function and durability. There is beauty in function and strength.

In Darrel's Krait and Apogee series, he has succeded very well in combining art and function. The Krait handle in particular is a striking design that works amazingly well. It is very stable in multiple grips and under all kinds of stress. The materials are great too, strong, durable, and beautiful. The Apogee has all the strengths of the Sebenza but completely transcends it in terms of design and blade steel.

So, to my way of looking at it, they are two makers who have achieved either beauty through function or function through beauty.
 
Mr Herman
As for Bladeforums NO this is not what it is about.
As for the amount of times I have been in this sort of conversation ... This is number one for me.

I am finished with this conversation with Lynn.

If you want to leave the forum well we were here before you got here.

This problem has been going on for a while now.
I saw a post that you were involved a few weeks back also. I think you felt the same as I do. Just fed up with this person.

As for Lynn He is erased from my memory!

Have a nice day!





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Web Site At www.infinet.com/~browzer/bldesmth.html
Take a look!!!




 
I wonder what Bill the Cat would say about all this?

James, love your poetry and your site has some of the coolest knives (love Finnish pukkas) and commentary anywhere. It's always nice to see elegance anywhere you can find it.

And speaking of elegance...it is possible to disagree without "bloodshed," isn't it? No one likes to feel they've been attacked personally, especially in public, so I can see why this flame blossomed so rapidly. Attack and counterattack. It's an old story, isn't it? And perennial.

Hopefully this flame will die down and we can get back to being our usual cooperative selves. One of the reasons I love this forum is that people tend to get along well here. I've seen much worse in newsgroups and this current flame is really a tempest in a teapot (so far). Hardly measures up to the Mad Dog epic (so far).

Perhaps the embers are dying? And we are all a little wiser? And there is a tooth fairy? And Santa will bring me a Sebenza, and, and...oh well, nevermind.



------------------
Hoodoo

Doubt grows with knowledge.
--Goethe
 
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