fossil walrus ivory artifact-sled runner

[milesofalaska]

Fossil walrus ivory artifact 9.4 ounces . 11 inches long x 2 inches wide x a fairly uniform ¼ inch thick. Probably part of a sled runner about 2,000 years old from the Eskimo Alaskan village of Savoonga. I have friends living in Nome, the nearest large village where the islanders congregate. We all barter and trade back and forth for supplies and raw materials. There is a slight bow to it but think ir can be sanded flat if used for scales. Such materials are harder to acquire as they belong in museums! I have been trading over 40 years and have materials I acquired long ago. This artifact could be scales for a knife handle and left intact enough to show the original working of the ivory and identifying it as a sled runner piece. It is hard to put a price on something so old and hard to come by , and impossible to replace. $350

I have other fossil walrus artifacts I think would be great for knives, fire starters, digging tools etc. I thought of adding them here- showing you. (?) I feel ‘stumped’ not understanding what you here as knife makers want. Best material?, best price?, rough you can get creative with?, finished you can simply drill and drop a blade in like a kit? Lowest price and best quality are not usually said in the same sentence. Nor best material personal service and lowest price. Something has to be sacrificed, so what will it be? I’ve been listing a lot of items and not moving much. In general it all sells, just ‘someplace else’ so can I figure out what is going on here that is not so elsewhere ?
I do not do many shows. I hear and suspect ‘the economy’ is effecting most of us – knife makers. Fewer people can sell the high end product and thus maybe do not invest in the high end materials. But I do see high end product move here. The more work we (any of us) do to the raw, the more we need to get for it. Thus, if a maker is strapped for money, it seems to me the answer would be to get nice material ‘raw’ don’t pay for a lot of service, and polish it up when you make the knife and save $100 or more . Yes I understand, one might get a pig in a poke! It’s nice to see it all shiny showing off the colors! The answer is “So put your money down and pay for that shine” Or…. Do that part yourself. I only guess the economy is getting worse. I’m making more money then I ever made in my life right now. I do well at the few shows I do go to and feel the rich are still getting richer as the middle class and poor pay the price. I still ‘feel’ for those hurting, and ideally I like to do business with talented but financially strapped.
So maybe give me some insight here guys. How do you want your materials? I’ve put up musk ox, mammoth, fossil walrus, at about half the price of the same item shined up. I just cant find it in my heart to shine it up and ask twice as much money. It’s not what I enjoy – it’s not how I buy, but I’m curious how it is for other knife makers. So give a comment. (Or I could take the question to a forum) , but just curious. I’ve simply not been showing my material here as much, and selling elsewhere. I’d like to show material you want to see and will buy. This piece for example, in the right market is 'priceless' as an artifact it could go $500 on up to $1,000. So this does nto sell at $350 'What's the problem' I can take it to the fossil show in 3 months and get $1,000 for it. I'd rather work with knife makers here. Comments welcome
So anyhow moving right along---[/B ]so the best way to buy this is off my web site using pay pal. http://www.milesofalaska.net/knife_Materials_Ivory/Fossil_walrus_ivory.html This item is second from the top on the page. Or send me a not and work out another way to pay.

 

[quint]

Thanks for sharing your interest in providing the best possible supplies tailored to this craft. I have not gotten any of the stuff you sell because I am not at that point yet in my abilities to justify that kind of handle material but I will give ya my opinion on what I would be interested in. Personally I would take the time to clean things up myself and go for the lower price. However it maybe one of the time and money type thing. Some guys would prefer ready to go so minimal time processing so they can turn out stuff quicker or should I say spend more time in other areas. Guess it depends on what style/kind of knife your making. The one thing about providing services is every group of people will have a different approach and hence a different need for there craft.

I hope ya keep posting things for sale here even if ya dont always get good leads on selling it.

 

[javand]

Miles,

I've gotten some great stuff from you, and I check your site often.

I like it both ways, although I think this year it's been a bit hit and miss for me. I'm mostly interested in walrus, so that's all I'm commenting on, but it seems like the nicer pieces you've had this year have not just been "rough", but pretty tricky to work with. Which I think definitely makes them harder to sell. Like the two really nice blue streaked pieces you had (one of which I bought), they're exceptional, but the grooves in them, atleast the piece I got, along with the already tight dimensions, means I'm going to have to get creative with it.

Same goes for the artifact pieces with holes in them. They're worth a premium for the "artifact" value, but from a usability standpoint, for me, they're worth less because of the complexity of using them.

There's also just some odd shaped pieces, that I think are daunting to many. Me, I like that stuff, but some of them have had some pretty tight dimensions in regards to thickness for my use.

I think the best selling pieces will always be the sections with semi-uniform roundness, and a thick end with a good taper, however, I'll always be interested in the odd shaped piece as long as it's got atleast one end that's thicker than 1/2". I'm personally also only really interested in sections for hidden tangs, so the scales rarely appeal to me, although that might change as I get into folders.



Personally, i'd much rather see some long, uncut, unpolished thicker pieces for sale. I'll always take a chance on a piece I can save a few bucks on and get 3 or 4 sections off of, since I'm not afraid to cut it or work it. A 6" long piece is usually a waste, price wise, for me, since it costs more, but I won't get two handles out of it, versus a piece that's 4-5"" and costs less. Even 3.5" can yield a nice hidden tang with a guard on a small knife, but 6" is just too tight usually for two, so it gets added to my pile of scrap "someday I'll use em for spacers" pile.

Anyway, sorry for the long reply, but I figured i'd offer my perspective as one of your customers, and a guy that buys as much fossil walrus as I can afford.

 

[BonhamBlades]

It takes a great business man to ask how he can better serve you, I respect that. This very topic regarding your store came up last night with 12 knife making buddies and myself. The consensus was that everyone loves your store especially the lower priced rougher material. There are many beginner knife makers on this site and elsewhere that are eager to try exotic materials, but are intimidated by the price tag. we all decided that if you want stuff to fly off your shelves you should target these customers by having a section on your site of materials $50 and less and a $100 and less. very few beginners fell comfortable working with something for the first time that costs over a $100. Nor do they want to buy in bulk. I personally am a customer of yours and visit your site daily. For sure offer as much walrus ivory as you can in that price range as no one else does and everybody wants it.

 

[RI_Shooter]

I bought a piece of fossil walrus from you about two weeks ago. I had never purchased anything from you before.
The piece I bought was 4 1/4" long, oval, and about an inch thick. I looked at it for several weeks before I bought it.
I could see that it looked like the entire piece was from the "cracked ice" core of a large tusk. I have only found a piece
of core big enough to make a full-size handle once before, and had always wanted to try it again. I couldn't understand
why the price was only $120.00. I finally took a chance and bought it. You sent me an E-mail acknowledging receipt of
payment the next day, and I received the ivory 3 days later. 3 days from Alaska to Rhode Island! The ivory was exactly
as described. Great service, and a very nice piece of ivory at a very reasonable price. I will certainly do business with you again.
Having said all of that, I do have couple of suggestions. While there is a certain market for walrus handle slabs, most
makers seem to be looking for pieces to make narrow tang knives. They are looking for one of three things:
1. A piece with good colour that is almost the exact right size and shape for a handle, so that they can avoid removing
the best of the colour in finishing.
2. A piece with deep colour that is at least close to the right size and shape so that a fair amount of colour will remain
after finishing.
3. A piece that may have little or no colour, but is large enough to carve down into the desired shape without hitting the
core. Then the either flute it or carve it.

Being able to really see the shape at different angles in the picture, as well as the ends of piece are important.

Some makers will take a chance and buy a really rough piece that isn't close to the right size as long as they are
sure that it is solid and they will be able to carve it without hitting the core, but they will not pay as much, because they
are taking at least some chance that it will not work for them.

It seems to me that you have cut some potentially gorgeous pieces into thick slabs that include visible core sections.
This tends to make it no good to makers as either slabs or narrow tang handles. Occasionally a little core showing in
a finished handle is a novelty, but usually the core should be on the tang side of slabs, not visible, concealed inside the
narrow tang, or such a big chunk that you can make the entire handle from the core, like the piece that I bought.

There is another Alaskan supplier who occasionally posts some beautiful pieces. They are more expensive, but well worth it for the certainty of knowing that you are getting exactly what you need. Not all pieces for sale need to be that
perfect, or that expensive, but they should bet cut and photographed in such a way that they more ore less fall into one
of the categories I mentioned. You often have some very nice ivory at reasonable prices. Please keep posting. Thanks.

 

[milesofalaska]

Thanks for comments Quint and Javand
Thinking between the two of you there is some insight here to think about. There are a lot of makers who just cant afford ‘high end’ material no matter what. Of those who can, many will be very discriminating. High end material is sold mostly by weight. Every extra ounce is another $35. Every minute I spend polishing flattening squaring up etc is another $2 it cost you. If a maker pays $350 instead of $500 for example, the question would be, is the extra time and effort to be creative with the material, - worth the $350 savings? The buyer needs to ask how much extra time and work is involved, at what cost? I look at this artifact and think it might cost me an extra hour in time to deal with it’s glitches. Is that hour time worth $350 in savings?
The difference in value between primo gem quality number one material, and plain old #1 or high grade #2 is twice the price. My take is those selling $150 knives need to look at other materials. Those selling $1,000 and up knives might need to look to higher grade. I want to target those who sell finished product in the $250 low, to $800 high range. Those might afford a top of $350 for handle material but not $500. We get what we pay for. I cant offer perfect material at huge discount prices. I want to offer ‘perfect in 8 out of 10 categories but a glitch in 2 out of 10 factors’ for – a nice discount. But I assume the average knife maker- my targeted customer- is selling knives in the $350 to $450 range. So I try to offer the quality of high end sought after material, musk ox, blue mammoth, fossil walrus etc in the $75 to $150 a set range. This sled runner at 11 inches x 2 inches might make 2 sets of scales. At $175 a set. .As high a quality as I can get within that targeted budget .
It might be well to try lower end material (lower quality then) as well as higher end quality (at a hefty mark up). I tend not to have or keep that highest quality, which in the mammoth ivory trade is about 1 pound in 500 pounds of tusk. The best sells itself, it need not make it to the forum. There are the 10 top makers in the world who say “Sold!” before I get the words halfway out of my mouth. Now I got 499 other pounds to sell. 5 of those pounds I offer up as ‘really nice’ at a nice ‘half the price of the primo’. And 450 pounds of hard to sell seconds. It’s rough on me as a seller as well as you guys as buyers. But I might get rid of the middle class and lower the price of seconds and raise the price of the best. Appeal to $150 a knife group and the over $1,000 a knife group and cut out the in between. (?) An idea. Again, comments welcome.

 

[milesofalaska]

Another reply – thanks for commenting.
To keep in mind…. I do not do any of the knife shows. I have never been in another knife makers work shop. I’m a maverick who does my own thing. Some things mentioned simply never occur to me (smile). Few want walrus core? How odd. (I think) I use it, value it, sell it on my products, and it’s the part that tells you it is walrus not any other kind of ivory. It cant be easily faked, it’s for sure not plastic etc. I think it enhances the value. Few want it? Ok. Well good to know then.

I tend not to be main stream and specialize in the odd, the unusual. I tend not to follow or cater to mainstream. But maybe I should.

Yes, will try to offer the good stuff in a way new makers and low budget can at least try it. I offer mammoth by the pound as scrap from $20 a pound up to $100 a pound. Now by the ounce, $10 for an ounce to fool with. This compares to scales starting at $20 an ounce ($320 a pound). Fossil walrus is harder for me to come by. Mammoth I find myself so can cut better deals as I end up with hundreds of pounds.

One issue I see is lower value usually means more skill to get it to work (as Javand points out) , not great for the beginner! But ok maybe with mammoth inner material cream colors etc for a lot less $. Musk ox but without the top patterns at greatly reduced prices. Just to learn with and have a descent usable product.
It may require lowering the price of seconds and raising the price of the best. But yes guys, I have a lot of seconds, as in hundreds of pounds.

Issue, it’s hard to spend that half an hour to take pictures and describe something with a $10 profit in it. It’s depressing. I’d rather sell 50 pounds and let that buyer ration it out an ounce at a time. But no, none offers that, no one does it, and that’s why.

How about this offer. No picture no describe no half hour of my time. mammoth ivory $30. I do the best I can and pick it out guaranteed good enough to make a ordinary knife handle. Like enough to make a set 3 x 1 x ¼ thick. Same material if I spend that half hour to photo describe gonna sell for min $50. Comments please.

 

[quint]

Sounds like a good middle ground really. From what I have scene and I watch the for sell section alot when I can is that most guys using any type of ivory or such is generally in that 250-800 range atleast here on the forums. I dont have time to usually follow websites and such on a regular basis. Personally I would say try and keep the middle ground and offer up groups of the lower grade stuff when you get it together. I cant say how well it will sell either way and I dont know how much of your business comes from the middle ground but think its best to offer a wide range of things if you want to attract the most customers.

When I start with this stuff its probably going to be lower range. As I get better and more confident with my ability to not screw up handle material and to work around issues I will more then likely move up to the middle ground and hopefully my knives that I sell will be priced accordingly. I dont think I will ever make the super high end stuff any time soon if ever so I wont even comment on that side of it.

The bargain bag idea sounds good also. Just read that last post of yours. I am sure you would have takers on it.

 

[javand]

Miles, I would definitely like to see, and be able to have a shot at some of your higher end pieces. I think you could definitely benefit from offering both much higher end, and lower end options.

Also, I don't think it's correct that nobody wants walrus core, I think it's just an "either", "or" situation. You either want 90%+ enamel with possibly a little core showing, or you want all core. I've bought a number of big tusk sections (14" or longer) from other sellers, that were thick and had shallow color, knowing the color couldn't be saved, but thick enough that I could cut spacers with it, and actually turn it sideways to see end core pattern on the sides of the knife.

I think the thing with "mostly" core is that I needs to just have a lot of meat to work with.

I think you may have a good idea with selling inexpensive, unworked, sight unseen mammoth. I'd really be interested in some large walrus like that also. I'll be going to the gem and fossil show next year myself to search for as much good stuff as I can find.

 

[RI_Shooter]

Miles, I might not have expressed myself well. The core is certainly valued. I think Javand said it very well. It is an
either/or type of thing. If used for a narrow tang knife, little or no core should show on the main body of the handle, only on the end. Many makers do not put buttcaps on narrow tang knives specifically so that the customer can see the
polished exposed core on the end. Conversely, it is rare to see a chunk of mainly core big enough to make a handle from because it would have had to come from the center of a very large tusk. That is why I was so pleased to get such a
large chunk of core for a reasonable price. It makes a very distinctive and beautiful handle.

 

[milesofalaska]

I go to the Tucson fossil mineral show every year. it's end Jan and into Feb. I can usually sell a years worth of your ivory needs at the best prices as much as half price. it's worth looking me up if any of you can make it. I'm set up at the Ramda and am in the fossil guide -- or email me for my cell phone number selling spot, maybe even we can make an appointnent. Something like 70,000 venders, a million customers, a lot of material moves there.

 

[javand]

Sounds good Miles, I'll plan to see you there. I wanted to go this year but couldn't, I'm saving up for it this time.

 

[BonhamBlades]

here is a pic of what i consider a great piece of ivory for the price that i used on a hidden tang style knife, that i purchased for $110 from miles. This is what spurred on the conversation with my knife buddies. It had light color to start with ( i will attach a pic of it raw as well. ), but being the first piece of ivory I ever worked I sanded thru it during shaping. If i was smart I would have left it alone after that. Instead I applied a light stain to return some color. Oh well live and learn. the point is this is what the 13 of us are looking for great ivory at a great price that isn't going to break the bank to experiment with. then as we improve so will our budgets.

 

[milesofalaska]

Hello Rm
Good material at a nice low price is simply hard to pull off consistently and make any money. Any fossil walrus is already rare. My concern would be if I offer up #2 or less grade for beginners at a good low price, you might well give up and get discouraged! It takes more skill to make lower grade work then high grade! A material is usually worth less for a reason. It’s marginal. I already sell a variety of grades of scrap in mammoth ivory. From $20 a pound to $100 a pound, now even by the ounce for $10. If any of it is worth making a knife handle it has a pretty good value. It is however great for learning how it cuts, what it does if you get it wet, hot etc. You can test various sanders, saw blades, see how it is compared to wood etc.

In truth there is simply no way around putting in time and spending money to learn the trade. I am sure any of the makers here who have reached that point of making a living and or getting over $1,000 for a knife will tell you how much they spent in time and tossed out material and mistakes along the way. They will tell you it is why they get paid so much. They paid their dues. It is unrealistic to expect or ask me to help anyone avoid that cost and time. I wish , I can try, but there are no shortcuts.

I might offer up practice material cheap, but it will not be enough to make a knife with. I can offer high grade even, but it will be small insignificant pieces. I already offer up #2 and it’s hard to move, with filler, stain, restoration, lamination etc. “But it’s cheap!” Seems not to cut it. “I want blue, I want solid, I want big, and I want a low price” is what I hear, and somewhere something needs sacrificing.

There is a blend of service quality and price. Like good service crappie product high but not out of site price. (some customers are willing to pay twice as much for lip service ) Or no service no pictures, but great product at a lower price. I hear a vote for #1 service #1 product with a #1 price tag. In a lower price range, what are we sacrificing ? What’s keeping the price down? You suggest lower quality . We’ll see, but so far if it does not look good, customers do not want it at any price. I feel discouraged. But at least have some input now. Thanks! Nice knfie by the way! One to be proud of!

 

[SVanderkolff]

MIles
You mentioned earlier that you were aiming at the guy making $350 to $800 knives. Unfortunately from what Ihave experienced that is the exact market that has been hit the hardest. Not saying that some folks can't sell in that range but on the whole that price point has all but disappeared. Knives up to around $300 sell well and those over $1000 (well made of course) still sell but the middle is gone.
As far as your prduct I would far prefer something unworked that I can play with at a lower price that something that is "just attach blade". I also would never buy something unseen. Unusual , odd, large enough to try and get multiple handles out of and unworked is best for me.
Thanks
Steve

 

[tryppyr]

I, for one, really like your material, your web site, and your business practices.

I tend to be a consumer of the less expensive materials. I like and appreciate the higher end goods, but don't need to have them touched up to look good. I like buying them in a rougher state. Big descriptions are not required.

Honestly, I also like the ivory scrap. I like the challenge of finding something to do with pieces that are big enough (or the right shape) to make a whole handle. It's all part of the fun for me. Pretty soon I intend to make a mosaic block mixing pieces of mammoth and walrus ivory for effect. I like the scrap material because it is cheap, and I find myself drawn to the rich colors in the bark too. Nice contrast for the creamy and tapioca colors of the walrus.

Anyway, thanks for offering the service and the good merchandise. You are greatly appreciated.

- Greg

 

[milesofalaska]

Hello Steve and Greg
Thanks for feedback. I’ll give your ideas a try. I pause and add “However” Observation of forum sales does not confirm what you say. I went to send a personal reply to a comment. Someone who suggested I’d do well offering more low end ivory. I saw in their file-- recent friends exchanges discussing purchases with another dealer. One known for offering grade #1 well shown well polished with fantastic personal service, guarantees of satisfaction etc etc for top dollar.

I do not see much ‘low end’ sell on the forum. The Burl source sells only the best coolest patterns of amazing wood . I do not see odd cuts , not squared up, tapered angels, rough sands, chunks of trees with bark still on it, unstabalized etc. for less money. Randy selling HHH Damascus does not offer ‘seconds’ cut offs, odds and ends, unfinished, stuff with a glitch in it- at half price. If it’s not the best they can offer, it does not have their name on it. My friend Mark Knapp selling similar materials as I offer, has worked hard for his reputation and sells only the best. He does not even show #2. Or rough. He does very well getting top dollar. You want it , you pay dear.

I see makers fighting over the best of the best, and just ‘best’ not selling at all. I see exchanges going back and forth about ‘cool’ and ‘wish I could afford it’ going to the one who got it and wonder if one big appeal is that prestige and pat on the back that everyone knows you got the best, and sort of reluctance for others to know you chose, or can only afford #2. (?) A ‘keeping up with the Jones’ syndrome.
Because this same materials I cant sell on this forum sells on my web site and at the few shows I do, and to other dealers. Higher grade then I use in my own finished work, and I average $400 to $500 for my knives. And I’m not a great knife maker , more if an ideas man. My finish work sucks. I sell my best raw material, and keep for myself what I cant sell.

It’s frustrating to hear “I cant afford that…” “I’m broke” “I’m just a poor knife maker” and replying ‘Well ok let me see what I can do for you” and seeing those same people buying the best for $100 more per piece then I’m trying to offer in the rough to help out. Makers actually have the money when they want it, when they see something they like?

Do most makers not know how to work rough material or feel intimidated by it? To save $100 they cant figure it out? Maybe they do not know how to tell if it is good or not? There’s always some ‘glitch’ “it was cut at the wrong angle! It’s to thick- to thin! It’s an inside curve, it’s not flat enough”. Well Da! That’s why it’s $100 less! “ I need to see the end of it , what colors will be inside? ” You get what you pay for. Why pay me or anyone $100 an hour to square it up and polish it? If you don’t like it, return it! Poor people tend to ask more questions, and worry more what I did with his $100, then the rich guy worries about his $1,000. Weird. (smile)

I’m with you, you are going to re-cut and re-sand material anyhow. I can take it to a high shine with gorgeous colors and 9 out of 10 times when the maker touches that surface the best colors are gone, because I (and others) know how to get to that perfect spot to show it off and sell it. Ideally it is you the maker who needs to get to that perfect color layer as your final step, not the first step to start at! So I’m puzzled.

My concern is, among my suppliers I have the reputation of buying up hundreds of pounds, thousands of dollars of #2. If what is wanted is “#1 in the rough, at half price” well most smart successful suppliers recognize #1 in the rough and charge accordingly – even at the source, it’s twice the price of #2. There is not enough of the gem quality above #1 grade for me to wholesale it cheap. Perfect blue no crack mammoth ivory for example is less than 1 pound in 1,000 pounds found. Where does the other 999 pounds go? That concerns me environmentally. Or when only the first 4 inches off the biggest bull musk ox horns sells. It supports trophy hunting, not subsistence hunting for food – which is what I am about and wish to be known for. If I sell that 1 pound out of 1,000 pounds of blue mammoth ‘cheap’ and cant sell the other 999 pounds at all at any price because no one wants it , how’s that gonna work?

So these are my thoughts. But yes. I may raise the price of the best, and lower the price of #2 and cut out the middle. I consider our entire country is losing it’s middle class. It’s probably better to join the rich, but again, I‘d rather not support trophy hunting unless I must.

Kinda long reply, I can be that way. I'm pretty passionate about my art, my materials. In busienss 40 years. Doing well but also like to understand what's going on.