Frame Captivated External Stop Pin HELP!!

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Jul 21, 2016
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I am about to make the jump and start purchasing tooling for the shop. I am having a hard time finding any information on the stop pin and how tight the press fit should be when pressing the stop pin into the blade. Can anyone give me some direction? Should I ream it .001, .005, .010 smaller than my stop pin? I am using CPM-3V steel at .190 thick. Stop Pin is Hardened 440C at .1873 diameter. Thanks!!
 
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I would not ream the hole any smaller than .001" under for a pin that size and a cross section that thick, with a hard pin. Any smaller and if you're lucky the pin will shear on it's way in, if you're unlucky, you may split the blade.
 
Whats up everyone! This is my first post, and I am on my journey with my first knife. The shop is currently finishing up being built and I am starting to purchase tooling for the knife making process. One area I am stuck on is the stop pin. I have an external stop pin that is going to be press fit into the blade. It will also be frame captivated, so it will be hidden. I am using CPM-3V steel for the blade at .190 thickness and a stop pin that is .1873 diameter made out of hardened 440C. I am trying to figure out how much smaller I should ream the stop pin hole before press fitting it into the blade. How much smaller should it be to get a secure fit without cracking the hardened steel of the blade. I should have a decent bit of steel in between the stop pin hole and any other edge of the blade, around .080 - .100. Thanks for any guidance!!
 
Thanks Kuraki! My options for reamer sizes are as follows...

.1870 - .0003 undersize
.1866 - .0007 undersize
.1862 - .0011 undersize
 
Do you have any idea how accurately you ream holes in your setup? Any runout in your drill press/mill tends to show up by going over nominal reamer size. So for example, if you were jig grinding these holes, .0003" undersize would be a perfect interference fit, it would assemble easily and likely never move because the form of the hole and pin would be quite good. However, if you're drilling and reaming before heat treat, and then have some dimensional distortion after heat treat, and have some runout in your setup, it's harder to gauge.

Your ultimate goal for a good fit is that it's tight without damaging either component, so given your choices I would lean towards the .1862 reamer, and hope that the hole doesn't shrink in heat treat. However, if the hole goes a little big as they tend to do, shrinking in heat treat wouldn't be too much an issue. I think that gives you the best chance at a good assembly.

Additionally, you can sometimes adjust your final reamed dimension by changing the size of your drilled hole. I would likely drill those holes with a #16 bit, .177" nominal. If your reamed hole is too small, you could try drilling with a #15 or #14. If too large, a #17.
 
You may also find that the hole can shrink with heat treating.

You could get it back to size lapping.

I'd start with .1870 and give it some permanent loctite for press fit shafts too.


A little testing may be necessary
 
As far as how accurate my setup is... I cannot currently answer that. I have a Delta 18-900L Drill press, Albrecht Drill Chuck with Integral Shank. For the money I threw to get that, it better be pretty darn good. My shop is still in the process of being setup, so hopefully I will know soon.

As far as issues with post HT, can't you just go back and check everything? Aren't you supposed to do that anyway? Make sure everything is clean and tight. I have a barrel lap for my pivot, maybe picking one up for this hole wouldn't be a bad idea so I am not reaming hardened still if it does shrink post HT.

In my previous career as a chef, I always told my cooks that you can always add, but you can't take away. You can always bring up food, but you can't undo cooking. Same principal would apply here I would think. You can always remove more metal if needed, you can't add it back. So maybe best approach is to start with the .1862 and go from there.

I was also curious about using some from of loctite or epoxy to help secure the pin in place after pressing. Any recommendations for that? Maybe something like JB Weld??

I wouldn't think that the drill hole size could effect the final ream size. That's good to know. Can you provide any explanation to why that occurs? Just curiosity there.

I understand that there are a bunch of variables that will effect the final outcome. I am really just looking for some guidance to get started.

Thanks guys! I really do appreciate the help.
 
A lap wouldn't be a bad idea, I don't know how to predict how much 3V will shrink in heat treat as I've never worked with it. If it were A2, I would say it likely wouldn't shrink at all, 440V, I'd say it'd shrink a small bit, but my experience in precision holemaking is related to tool and die, not blades, so the blade steels I just don't have a lot of experience with. Your anecdote about adding more as a chef is true. You can always make a hole bigger. Sometimes you can make it smaller, by heating it, but not much smaller, and again, depending on the material and whether heating it again ruins your final product. So the .0011 under reamer with a lap is a good plan.

As for the question about drilled hole size, the answer is simple. Physics apply in machining like they do everywhere else in the world. For every action, there is a reaction. One of the principle goals of machine tool makers is to reduce and contain that reaction as much as possible, but they cannot eliminate it. They might reduce it to a point you cannot practically measure, but it's still there. It's the underlying reason behind tolerances, and why they must exist. So when you squeeze that reamer into an under size hole, the reamer wants to stay it's nominal diameter, and the work piece wants to resist being cut and stay it's current size. This creates flex in the tool that's commonly called deflection. Reamers, of all the various cutting tools, are quite good at resisting it. They're supported by the work on both sides, they have shallow, straight flutes, they are fed axially while cutting radially, and they're generally quite sharp and free cutting. Still, they deflect. So generally, increasing the pre-hole size will increase the reamed hole size, decreasing it will decrease the reamed hole size. It's not always measurable, it's not the ideal way of tweaking a final reamed hole size, but it is a trick that can work. For a practical example, my shop had a job some time back which required to precision 1.181" holes, the diameter tolerance was +/- .0002". We bored these holes for a long time with single point boring bars, but the variability in that process led to a lot of rework parts over time. I put in a solid carbide Komet reamer, to ream that hole, a production tool that could make that hole to size and round 5 to 6 thousand times before needing replacement (at least that's what the Komet salesman told me). We used their recommended drill size, which was -.007 the diameter of the reamer. And not two weeks later, our holes are coming out small. Only .001" small, but that is 5x the tolerance allowed. We did not ream 6,000 holes in two weeks, so I called our salesman and asked what the deal was, this $3,000 reamer is already making small holes!. He asked me to check the drilled hole size. I did. It was .015" under, rather than the .007" specified. There you go he said, change those inserts and you'll be back to nominal. So I did, and we were. That's where I learned that the pre-hole size drilled can have a significant impact on reamed hole size.

Lastly, using lockers or adhesive is always a good practice in my opinion if the application can tolerate it. Some can't, but that's generally not a concern with knifemaking I imagine. I think loctite type products are preferable to adhesives in this application, and if you do choose to use an adhesive I would recommend Rocksett, because it's thin like CA glue, but far far more durable. Loctite 609 is a retaining compound for making up loose fitting slip fits up to .005" oversize. It works very, very well at that. For press fits, I generally use red 262 threadlocker, as that is meant to work in tighter spaces. Some of the carbide punches I used to build were cylindrical sleeves with a punch body cutout EDM cut into them at a .0005" slip fit, we would assemble them with 262 loctite and they would run for 100s of thousands of hits without moving. When they were sharpened to short, we could heat them up, push them apart, and insert the punch body half way and get another few runs out of them. So it works well in tight fits.
 
Well that is pretty interesting! Thanks Kuraki for all the info you have provided. I greatly appreciate it. I think I am a little more comfortable now with the stop pin issue. I am sure I will still have some trial and error, but hopefully not as much.
 
I've done all sorts of complicated procedures with folders and all you really need is a 3/16" reamer with the frame captivated or "floating" pin.

I'd consider using a .1865" reamer if you need to do a press fit.

.
 
Thanks for the input Daniel! I don't have a .1865 reamer, but I am going to use a .1866 reamer. What drill size would you use? I am leaning towards the #15 or 4.6mm.
 
I like .020" under so a #18 or 11/64 would be nice. I've tried closer reamers but these sizes seem more accurate for me. I use carbide...
 
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