Frame Constructed Handles – I like them. You?

[Kevin Jones]

Yes, I like the frame or cased constructed handles. Makers have been using them for quite some time.

I think the initial reason the process was developed was to create a better, stronger way to hold a handle on to the Bowie. Also by utilizing slab or scale cut handle material in the frame process, the maker is able to maximize his handle material, which is nice if he has a smaller piece of special ivory which he would like to use on a particular knife. Another plus in my opinion is that it allows the maker to expand on his design by using Damascus on his frame or engraving it. And it’s just one more way a maker can demonstrate his or her skill as it’s a very tedious process when performed correctly.

As pointed out in our past “deal breakers” thread and others, some don’t care for frame handles.
Probably one of the biggest disadvantages is the possibility of handle material shrinkage if the material is not properly cured before usage. Yes no doubt, a framed handle can look quite bad if the handle material shrinks away from the frame. But you take this chance with any style handle construction to varying degrees by using poorly cured handle material.

One reason I started this thread is to get input from makers as to their preferences or tricks (let’s give away some secrets) used in their frame construction process and / or to correct any of my misconceptions above. Also let’s hear form collectors as to their likes or dislikes regarding frame handles and why. And last, I bet many new collectors and possibly seasoned collectors don’t understand the process. I’m embarrassed to admit that I didn’t know until I had ordered my first Southwest Bowie and specified one. I knew I liked the look, but thought the tang was made full handle width and the scales were attached through the wide tang. And in fact some handles (full tang) are constructed that way.

I have included some good in process photos form both Jerry Fisk and Tim Hancock to help demonstrate the process. The Fisk also has a rear bolster and the Hancock fileworked spacers both adding to the complexity. In my opinion, these two makers are among the very best at this method of handle construction.

Note the small groves Jerry cuts into the interior of the frame to allow bonding material to seep in, increasing the bond to the tang. A slight task but one that helps.

Thanks for looking....

 

[jjtjr]

Kevin, What would be the advantage of this over a full tang knife?

 

[T.K.C.]

Kevin, What would be the advantage of this over a full tang knife?

I was wondering the same thing!!

 

[Kevin Jones]

Kevin, What would be the advantage of this over a full tang knife?

I don't know Jim.
I picked that up from another forum discussion regarding framed/cased handle use on old historical Bowies. Wondered myself when I read it.
Perhaps one of the makers could clear that up for us. Perhaps it's not true.
Can't remember what makers were discussing it. I will try to look it up.

 

[Ebbtide]

The guard gets slid over the tang.
On a full tang the guard would have to be pinned on from the sides.
That works OK when you have a single guard (hunter) but gets tricky with double guards.
Also in the days of yore, steel was expensive. The tang could be a lesser steel. The framed handle added a bit of strength and the look of a full tang.
Nickle Silver handle frames didn't patina from the constant contact with the user's hand as well.

 

[Keith Montgomery]

Another advantage that a frame handle is that it can be made of stainless steel. Carbon steel is stained by the chemicals in the sweat and oil transferred from the palm of your hand.

A disadvantage is that a frame handle tends to make a knife handle heavy. In full tang construction the tang can be tapered to reduce weight. Frame handles tend to be the same thickness throughout.

Kevin pointed out another disadvantage, which is the added work required to make the frame handle. That will add to the cost of the knife.

I like frame handles on some knives, and I believe that with extra work one could be tapered to reduce weight. Of course, that will again add to the cost.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Another advantage that a frame handle is that it can be made of stainless steel. Carbon steel is stained by the chemicals in the sweat and oil transferred from the palm of your hand.

A disadvantage is that a frame handle tends to make a knife handle heavy. In full tang construction the tang can be tapered to reduce weight. Frame handles tend to be the same thickness throughout.

Kevin pointed out another disadvantage, which is the added work required to make the frame handle. That will add to the cost of the knife.

I like frame handles on some knives, and I believe that with extra work one could be tapered to reduce weight. Of course, that will again add to the cost.

All good points. The extra weight for the frame handle could help balance a large Bowie.

 

[Keith Montgomery]

The extra weight for the frame handle could help balance a large Bowie.

That it could, so in that case a negative becomes a positive.

 

[ptgdvc]

All good points. The extra weight for the frame handle could help balance a large Bowie.

Don Hanson III is in the process of building a large Damascus frame handled Bowie for his MS test in Atlanta, this June. I am sure that that the frame will help balance the blade and show off the Walrus scales to best advantage.

P

 

[lwrhea]

Kevin,
One thing to offset the possibility of shrinkage is to undersize the frame by about 10/1000 or so. The logic, of course, is that in the case it does shrink, it will just get closer to flush and if it dont, great. Dr Jim Batson helped me with that one.

I like frame handles and just am getting started on one. I have to completely draw the knife in two demension and refer to the drawing often to get the frame profile just right before doing the filework on the frame liners. Once you get the frame filworked, you have to be very careful while shaping the scales. Lots of hand finishing and dryfitting. This is the type of handle I'm talking about.

Of course you can shape the handle and pull it apart to filework, but in some cases, I think this is easier. Depends on the material and if you can temporary glue it without screwing it up. It does add to the cost a little, but I think its worth it. Ignore the twisted damascus please Lin

 

[beyondmyken]

This shows my ignorance. I thought I had come up with a new concept. One thought about a laminated handle (and that is what this is) is that it seems very strong with epoxies. Modern recurve and longbow handles are often made by laminating different woods together and using high pressure clamps. Couldn't you use piece of wood or micarta instead of the steel for the center piece? This could provide some nice contrasts.

 

[Kevin Jones]

That makes good sense to go slightly oversize.
Beautiful handle. I can imagine that was a tough one
with that much contour in the handle.

 

[robert n. parker]

I have been doing frame handles for 15 years, it was the standrad on a lot of sheffield bowies, I've done brass and nickle silver wrapped, I have a couple different way's of doing them, You can taper and drill to balance, I'm working on a Broomhead & thomas bowie, Forged 5160 and a lot of grinding,with a nickle silver hilt, I will post a picture. R.N.P.

 

[John T Wylie Jr]

Tom Krein just did a Copper framed tang ( tapered ) as well for the Knifemakers Buildoff on CK&G , I thought it was slick.

I am gonna have to look into this style more , it unique

 

[thombrogan]

Great thread, Kevin! Great pics from you and Lynn, too.

So is Sendero one of them non-English words popular in southwestern Europe and the Americas or is it a contraction of "send 'er over - I want that knife!"?

Couldn't you use piece of wood or micarta instead of the steel for the center piece? This could provide some nice contrasts.

You absolutely could and it'd cut down on extra weight while moving the balance forward on the blade. May I steal your interpretation, beyondmyken? I promise I won't do it any justice.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Great thread, Kevin! Great pics from you and Lynn, too.

So is Sendero one of them non-English words popular in southwestern Europe and the Americas or is it a contraction of "send 'er over - I want that knife!"?

Thanks man. Here's a photo of the completed Sendero:

 

[NickWheeler]

Just to clarify, a wrapped tang and a framed handle are quite different.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Just to clarify, a wrapped tang and a framed handle are quite different.

Hi Nick.
I'm not quite sure I know what a wrapped tang is.

A framed or cased handle as some call it, is an independently constructed metal frame generally with slab type handle material attached and then usually mechanically attached to the inter tang. Anyway, that's how I would explain it.

What is a wrapped tang handle?

 

[thombrogan]

It must be "send 'er over! I want that knife!"

 

[NickWheeler]

I owe you an apology Kevin, I didn't see your question until I revisited this thread because of your email.

I tried to explain this to Kevin via email, but I'll fumble it up here too, just so everybody can see

A wrapped tang is something that I have seen done on quite a few stock removal full tang knives from the 70's early 80's. It is a full tang knife that has had the profile of the tang reduced. From what I've seen, it's usually only taken down about 0.100"

Then the tang PROFILE, is wrapped with something like brass, copper, etc.

That material is then soldered/brazed in place, and the tang trued back up. Then the knife is put together like any full tang piece with scales. The effect is a line of copper or such sandwiched in-between the handle scales rather than the blade steel as one would expect.

Kind of a neat thing.

It is, however, much different than a framed handle. The pics of the Fisk and Hancock explain that quite well. A framed handle is used on a hidden tang blade with a slip on guard.

I don't look at a framed handle as any sort of comparison to a full tang. It is, rather, an avenue to expand the possibilities of handle composition on a hidden tang knife.

A forged knife with good flow (IMNSHO) should be about the same width at the front of the handle as the ricasso. A framed handle lets you get that look AND use handle SCALES.

One of the craziest framed handles I have seen was done by Shawn McIntyre. He forged some 416 ss so that it made the ferrule and the frame all out of one piece. That would be VERY difficult to forge, grind, fit, and get all centered.

If you want a PRIME example of this construction, Tim Hancock's table at any show is usually a good place to look