Anybody had bad experiences with a frame lock folder without the lock stabilizer that you see on Strider folders? I'm asking this because I'm interested in some folders which don't have the stabilizer that prevent the lock to go beyond when closing the knive and never bought one before. I know that many folders have their clip instead of the stabilizer to stop the liner, but I like to carry my folders without clips. Do you think that you must have stabilizer or clips on a frame lock folder?
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frame lock
- Thread starter ryosuke
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if it's a good framelock, IMHO, the stabilizer is unnecessary. take a sebenza. No need at all.
STR pointed out that you only need a stabilizer if the lock relief is cut too deep. Otherwise, the lock will self-regulate.
Brett
It seems that most of the time the average guy wouldn't need a travel limiting device. Most folks have a feeling for how much to open the lock so that they can close the blade
and not go much beyond that.
Maybe if you were in a situation where you have some huge adrenalin rush you might not think about how hard you are pushing on the lock bar.
and not go much beyond that.
Maybe if you were in a situation where you have some huge adrenalin rush you might not think about how hard you are pushing on the lock bar.
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Actually I think now that its quite possible that some guys could in fact damage the spring tension on even thicker lock cut frame lock folders after a repair I did recently.
The only real problem with frame locks at all is that at times the end line user of one can hyper extend the lock on occasion. Its like this you see, on many models of frame locks the pocket clip acts as an added restrictor to hyper extension. On those that don't or those that can truly be carried and used without the need for a pocket clip there is a built in stabalizer on the folder or the option to use one.
Its rare to see a lock restrictor for movement laterally to hyperextend the spring but even rarer and probably less needed for restricting vertical movement downward but both are a very good idea that should certainly be utilized more often by makers and production companies alike in my opinion.
In most uses a frame lock is a more reliable than a liner lock and for that matter it rates among the best available but this open side build with one bare side can be problematic for some users. Mick Strider reported hyper extending his own folder once during some emergency that I recall reading once. I know I've personally repaired several frame locks over the years to respring the tension to the lock to make the lock travel in as far as it should again but this repair and the call of it are both rare. Its usually associated with someone buying a frame lock folder and taking the pocket clip off the knife to carry it in their pocket deep like the old slip joints and small lockbacks that they perhaps replaced. I have learned that most don't know this can happen and that its often times during use when they learn of it. Its also true that not all frame lock's pocket clips are set up to act as an over travel preventive. Its also quite true that not all are problematic for this. The ones that are usually have very very thin lock cuts to bend and spring the lock.
This problem of hyper extension potential in frame locks can be corrected for those that wish to carry a frame lock that needs this feature without the pocket clip and all it would take for companies to fix this is to simply drill a hole and install a simple screw such a way as to allow the head of the screw to stop the lock from overtravel much the same way Spyderco did on their ATR folder. It is also possible to install something as easy as the pivot ring like Mantis knives has done on their frame locks and these are 20 to 50 dollar folders! A.G. Russel designed a very very good one in his SeaMaster by simply mounting a piece of thin G10 strategically to stop the lock from over extending. In a word this is simply genius. All production companies have scraps of this material or some other material they use and it would not even add any cost to do this on their frame locks but yet few have it. Go figure.
Note the lock over travel preventive on the SeaMaster here. As I said, Genius.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=78846&d=1189871822
STR
The only real problem with frame locks at all is that at times the end line user of one can hyper extend the lock on occasion. Its like this you see, on many models of frame locks the pocket clip acts as an added restrictor to hyper extension. On those that don't or those that can truly be carried and used without the need for a pocket clip there is a built in stabalizer on the folder or the option to use one.
Its rare to see a lock restrictor for movement laterally to hyperextend the spring but even rarer and probably less needed for restricting vertical movement downward but both are a very good idea that should certainly be utilized more often by makers and production companies alike in my opinion.
In most uses a frame lock is a more reliable than a liner lock and for that matter it rates among the best available but this open side build with one bare side can be problematic for some users. Mick Strider reported hyper extending his own folder once during some emergency that I recall reading once. I know I've personally repaired several frame locks over the years to respring the tension to the lock to make the lock travel in as far as it should again but this repair and the call of it are both rare. Its usually associated with someone buying a frame lock folder and taking the pocket clip off the knife to carry it in their pocket deep like the old slip joints and small lockbacks that they perhaps replaced. I have learned that most don't know this can happen and that its often times during use when they learn of it. Its also true that not all frame lock's pocket clips are set up to act as an over travel preventive. Its also quite true that not all are problematic for this. The ones that are usually have very very thin lock cuts to bend and spring the lock.
This problem of hyper extension potential in frame locks can be corrected for those that wish to carry a frame lock that needs this feature without the pocket clip and all it would take for companies to fix this is to simply drill a hole and install a simple screw such a way as to allow the head of the screw to stop the lock from overtravel much the same way Spyderco did on their ATR folder. It is also possible to install something as easy as the pivot ring like Mantis knives has done on their frame locks and these are 20 to 50 dollar folders! A.G. Russel designed a very very good one in his SeaMaster by simply mounting a piece of thin G10 strategically to stop the lock from over extending. In a word this is simply genius. All production companies have scraps of this material or some other material they use and it would not even add any cost to do this on their frame locks but yet few have it. Go figure.
Note the lock over travel preventive on the SeaMaster here. As I said, Genius.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=78846&d=1189871822
STR
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This is true only in normal use I think. Its often times in a heated moment like an emergency that it can occur without realizing it. I do agree though the repair need for this is rare but it does happen. The real question is does it happen enough to justify makers and production companies designing in safety preventive devices? As its sits now a few think so and most don't.
I purposely make my clips to act as a stabalizer. If I were ever to get an order for a folder of mine that was a frame lock but the customer did not want a pocket clip I'd try to pursuade that customer into allowing me to install some other device to work as a hyper extension safety.
There are some folders floating around out there that this can happen with quite easily. Most people don't feel its necessary I think but I believe the reason for this lies in the fact that most frame lock users carry their frame lock using the pocket clip. Its those that don't that learn the hardway. I'll give you an example. Take the clip off your HD7 and see just how easy it would be without the clip there to help put some added pressure on the lock.
STR
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Wow I can't recall the last time I made three back to back posts. Guess this is something I've been keeping in a while and needed to voice.
Anyway, here are some things to look for in folders that can be problematic. I know one of these is a Strider with the Stablizer but I'm showing this pic for the lock cut view. One of the biggest reasons the lock stablizer is so needed is due to that cut out on the lock to tension it. Note the thinness of the lock at the cut on these quick examples I found in a search. Note also that regardless of what brand these are its not uncommon for frame locks to have this kind of drastic reduction in thickness at the bend point of the lock. Its all over the place.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=58375&d=1153749742
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=63384&d=1164952855
Far be it from me to predict the future here but I'm going to go ahead and say this for more food for thought for you guys and the production companies and makers about where we are headed.
Laws are changing regarding the carry of knives. For quite a while now many offices and work environments have become less and less tolerant of knives. We all have noted it and spoke of it. Now with states like New York and other big city metropolis areas restricting citizens from the carry of a folding knife and calling it a concealed weapon if seen we have people re-evaluating the way they carry or if they carry one at all.
I believe with further law changes for knives as time goes on that we may well see an increase on the repair end of things in some of the hyper extension issues of the frame locking mechanisms compared to the past because people in the future if not already will be more inclined to remove the clip to carry a knife they like just so they can get away with it being hidden. I know guys that have removed the clip to carry knives as big as the Stretch, (a lockback I know but a big heavy one for the example) and even a CQC12 (resident of NY big surprise) and I can cite a number of times when I've had reports back to me of people carrying their Emerson HD7 clipless. One just recently. I think its worth stating lastly that I have resprung locks on both those mentioned for forum members as well as a few others and one of my own frame locks in the last three years.
I'm not trying to say its a big problem. Its not. Its just something we may see more of is all I'm suggesting could happen.
Anyway, here are some things to look for in folders that can be problematic. I know one of these is a Strider with the Stablizer but I'm showing this pic for the lock cut view. One of the biggest reasons the lock stablizer is so needed is due to that cut out on the lock to tension it. Note the thinness of the lock at the cut on these quick examples I found in a search. Note also that regardless of what brand these are its not uncommon for frame locks to have this kind of drastic reduction in thickness at the bend point of the lock. Its all over the place.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=58375&d=1153749742
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=63384&d=1164952855
Far be it from me to predict the future here but I'm going to go ahead and say this for more food for thought for you guys and the production companies and makers about where we are headed.
Laws are changing regarding the carry of knives. For quite a while now many offices and work environments have become less and less tolerant of knives. We all have noted it and spoke of it. Now with states like New York and other big city metropolis areas restricting citizens from the carry of a folding knife and calling it a concealed weapon if seen we have people re-evaluating the way they carry or if they carry one at all.
I believe with further law changes for knives as time goes on that we may well see an increase on the repair end of things in some of the hyper extension issues of the frame locking mechanisms compared to the past because people in the future if not already will be more inclined to remove the clip to carry a knife they like just so they can get away with it being hidden. I know guys that have removed the clip to carry knives as big as the Stretch, (a lockback I know but a big heavy one for the example) and even a CQC12 (resident of NY big surprise) and I can cite a number of times when I've had reports back to me of people carrying their Emerson HD7 clipless. One just recently. I think its worth stating lastly that I have resprung locks on both those mentioned for forum members as well as a few others and one of my own frame locks in the last three years.
I'm not trying to say its a big problem. Its not. Its just something we may see more of is all I'm suggesting could happen.
There would be no need for any 'stabilizer' if the long cutout for the lock wasn't made perpendicular to the metal, but instead under a certain backward angle.
This way the locking part can only move inward, not outward.
Normal framelock cutouts are made like this: ===I=== seen from above.
My idea was to make the cutout like this: ===\=== also seen from above.
The metal is represented bij the ===
I hope this explains it a bit,
This way the locking part can only move inward, not outward.
Normal framelock cutouts are made like this: ===I=== seen from above.
My idea was to make the cutout like this: ===\=== also seen from above.
The metal is represented bij the ===
I hope this explains it a bit,
I've had a Sebenza in my pocket going on 8 years now. NEVER had a problem with it. I do know from job experience that the adrenal gland plays wicked tricks on mind and body when called upon. However, I've never had my knife into that mix. I can see that over extension when the mind is stressed may be a problem. I have never experienced it.
I could be wrong but wasn't another reason for the LBS was for hyperextention caused by people engaging the lock with gloved hands and not being able to really tell how far they pushed the lock over? such as with firefighting equipment on. I think I remember reading somewhere that was what Rick Hinderer had in mind when he designed it, this goes hand in hand with adrenaline though.
I have an SnG and a Sebenza, and one very noticable difference between them is that framelock cutout (which give them the flex) is on the outside in the Strider and inside the Sebenza. I wonder how much of a difference this plays.
Here are two borrowed pictures for example
I have an SnG and a Sebenza, and one very noticable difference between them is that framelock cutout (which give them the flex) is on the outside in the Strider and inside the Sebenza. I wonder how much of a difference this plays.
Here are two borrowed pictures for example
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IMO for 99.5 percent of people who buy these kinds of knives an LBS is overkill. It is a good idea, don't get me wrong, but I think it's the most useful as a selling point. Again nothing wrong with that.
I like the idea of a slant cut in the lock back, using the angles of the cut itself to prevent over travel. I'd like to see someone make that.
I like the idea of a slant cut in the lock back, using the angles of the cut itself to prevent over travel. I'd like to see someone make that.
- Joined
- Nov 16, 1998
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- 324
Hey Guys,
Its amusing hearing other people explain my Lockbar Stabilizer"
I'll try to explain it again.
The Lockbar Stabilizer is not just a overtravel stop. It stabilizes the lockbar. Let me explain, when you cut that longitunal slot in the titanium handle slab you are creating a gap in the handle right? You have to cut that slot to make the lockbar. Because of that gap when you grip the knife hard, for instance doing a tough cutting chore you will squeeze the handle hard thus pushing the lockbar towards the spine of the knife. Some have said the thickness of the web has alot to do with this movement,and they are right it does, the thicker the web the more "meat" you have in the web and the less movement you have on the lock face. However, you will STILL have movement it may be so slight you wont even feel it but it will still be there. The Lockbar Stabilizer eliminates this movement entirely, because it places a "block" between the lockbar and the handle. So as i said before the Lockbar Stabilizer is more than a overtravel device.
But, let me touch on the importance of a overtravel device. It was me that was involved in a emergency that showed me the importance of this. Of course most of you know that I'm a firefighter. I was on a MVA and while up on a extreme amount of adrenalin I closed my folder after cutting the seat material away from a seat post so i could ge tthe jaws in to cut it. When i went to open the knife again later I realized I had completly overextended the lockbar thus rendering the knife usless. This knife had a clip covering the lockbar. Now, I've heard some say that you need to know when too much pressure will overextend this. Well, these people havent experienced adrenaline dump from a stessful situation! haha When you have a patiant screaming from pain right next to you you arent going to concentrate on how you are unlocking and closing your knife.Nor should you! To respond to those that say that it happens so few times that it just isnt worth doing..haha well, I dont think you want to be the one trapped in a burning car and have the rescuer about to cut you out have that very rare occurance happen! "sorry dude this usually doesnt happen" haha No I want the knife where it WILL NOT happen.
I agree that most cutting chores that people do will never stress the knife this bad to where you will see things like a overextended lockbar, and where a knife is used hard so much that you would have wear in the lockface from a unstabilized lockbar. But, i make and design knives that ARE going to be used in these extreme conditions, and from being a firefighter I know that these tools must NOT fail, in ANY type of working condition.
I'm not writing this post as a negative to any other folder or maker out there. I'm writing it because I think you guys would like to hear the creater of the Lockbar Stabilizer explain this mechanism,and explain the thought process behind it.
I've been making and designing folding knives for a living for 20 years now and a fighter/emt/rescue diver for 11 years. This is where I pull my expertise from.
Thanks for listening to me ramble!!
Rick Hinderer
Its amusing hearing other people explain my Lockbar Stabilizer"
I'll try to explain it again.The Lockbar Stabilizer is not just a overtravel stop. It stabilizes the lockbar. Let me explain, when you cut that longitunal slot in the titanium handle slab you are creating a gap in the handle right? You have to cut that slot to make the lockbar. Because of that gap when you grip the knife hard, for instance doing a tough cutting chore you will squeeze the handle hard thus pushing the lockbar towards the spine of the knife. Some have said the thickness of the web has alot to do with this movement,and they are right it does, the thicker the web the more "meat" you have in the web and the less movement you have on the lock face. However, you will STILL have movement it may be so slight you wont even feel it but it will still be there. The Lockbar Stabilizer eliminates this movement entirely, because it places a "block" between the lockbar and the handle. So as i said before the Lockbar Stabilizer is more than a overtravel device.
But, let me touch on the importance of a overtravel device. It was me that was involved in a emergency that showed me the importance of this. Of course most of you know that I'm a firefighter. I was on a MVA and while up on a extreme amount of adrenalin I closed my folder after cutting the seat material away from a seat post so i could ge tthe jaws in to cut it. When i went to open the knife again later I realized I had completly overextended the lockbar thus rendering the knife usless. This knife had a clip covering the lockbar. Now, I've heard some say that you need to know when too much pressure will overextend this. Well, these people havent experienced adrenaline dump from a stessful situation! haha When you have a patiant screaming from pain right next to you you arent going to concentrate on how you are unlocking and closing your knife.Nor should you! To respond to those that say that it happens so few times that it just isnt worth doing..haha well, I dont think you want to be the one trapped in a burning car and have the rescuer about to cut you out have that very rare occurance happen! "sorry dude this usually doesnt happen" haha No I want the knife where it WILL NOT happen.
I agree that most cutting chores that people do will never stress the knife this bad to where you will see things like a overextended lockbar, and where a knife is used hard so much that you would have wear in the lockface from a unstabilized lockbar. But, i make and design knives that ARE going to be used in these extreme conditions, and from being a firefighter I know that these tools must NOT fail, in ANY type of working condition.
I'm not writing this post as a negative to any other folder or maker out there. I'm writing it because I think you guys would like to hear the creater of the Lockbar Stabilizer explain this mechanism,and explain the thought process behind it.
I've been making and designing folding knives for a living for 20 years now and a fighter/emt/rescue diver for 11 years. This is where I pull my expertise from.
Thanks for listening to me ramble!!
Rick Hinderer
I think this is the main point. In situations where you have complete control of yourself I think you would tend to close the knife as intended and not have to worry about the overstress.
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HAHA...As I said,people who havent been in that situation just dont know...when i'm on a scene, i"m obviously in control...just because you have elevated adrenaline doesnt mean your some out of control nutbag...any other FF/LEO/ Soldier will tell you that! Again, I am concentrating on the job at hand and that is getting someone out of a wreck, i dont want to think about closing a fricken knife!
Rick
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Exactly. And the record of repairs in the industry if we could see them, would most likely support this but that does not mean the lock stablizer and hyper extension issue is something that should be ignored. The more people that carry a frame lock bare sided deep in the pocket the more we'll probably hear about this.
The lock moving vertically is not so much a safety issue in my eyes but it can relate to how much force is needed to release the lock. Also on some models it can be something that is, well bothersome for lack of a better word. I've noted on more than one occasion where I could easily squeeze down on the lock of some deeply cut frame locks at the bend area with the blade half way open. On some of these I've actually been able to make it touch the other side of the long cut where the end of the lock at the contact actually connected briefly with the other side of the cut. I think the issue there is more to do with undue wear and added stress on the lock face contact but its more than that. As I started to say above a lock that moves downward can sometimes make the lock stick when it moves this way and this is also something problematic with some frame lock folders.
As another example, I repaired a frame lock that stuck really bad just for this reason for a user and it was probably due to the lock sticking so bad that the lock was hyperextended in the first place because the user had to push it with a great deal of force to make it release. I suspect that what occured with this one was that when the lock finally did release from sticking so the owner of the knife could close the blade the lock then went out too far the wrong way causing it to slightly hyper extend even with the clip still on it that in most uses does in fact restrict or make that movement harder to do on the knife. So it just goes to show you even with a pocket clip made that way to help for this it isn't fully 100% effective. It just helps I think in most uses.
Lastly, for many just using your folder with gloves on is enough to not realize how hard you push to release your folder lock to release it, just like putting on gloves allows you to really tweak harder on a nylon wing nut made to be turned by hand like on some modern plumbing fittings. Its very easy to get carried away with gloves and when you combine that with the right amount of stress it leads to the need.
Thanks for the comments Rick. Good to see you again.
STR
Microtech put a nifty lock bar stablizer on their Mini SOCOM Elite Frame Lock.
The frame below the lock bar (if the back of the knife is down) has been milled out to accept a steel extension attached to the end of the aluminum lock bar.
Part of the steel extension to the lock bar slips behind the blade to lock the blade open. The other part of the little steel extension, extends below the lock bar
and fits in a milled out part of the frame limiting both the horizontal and vertical movement of the lock bar.
In the pic below the blade is partly closed to make it easier to see the lock stablizer.
In this pic you can see the milled out part of the frame. The blade is locked open.
The frame below the lock bar (if the back of the knife is down) has been milled out to accept a steel extension attached to the end of the aluminum lock bar.
Part of the steel extension to the lock bar slips behind the blade to lock the blade open. The other part of the little steel extension, extends below the lock bar
and fits in a milled out part of the frame limiting both the horizontal and vertical movement of the lock bar.
In the pic below the blade is partly closed to make it easier to see the lock stablizer.
In this pic you can see the milled out part of the frame. The blade is locked open.
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Aluminum with a steel insert for the contact is what it looks to be but can't say for sure.
I've seen that kind of thing with a hardened screw for a stop pin placed in an aluminum bar (Kershaw ET) and I have inserted steel inlays for increased wear in titanium. I would like to know if thats aluminum too though. Thanks for sharing those pictures Rich.
I almost started a new thread in my forum here to ask guys that see stabalizers of anykind on folders to post pics for to get a inventory over time of whats there. I did not know about that one.
STR