Framelock lockup (pic)

S

stropper

Joined
May 11, 2004
Messages
57
Any thoughts on the lockup on this framelock?
Any improvements that could be made?
stabilized4.jpg

Your advise is highly appreciated!
 
The lockup could be OK, I've seen several framelocks that engage about that much.

I would do a light spine whack, or put a little pressure on the lock (carefully) to see if it starts to slip. It may just be the angle of the photo, but the lockbar face looks more square then I would expect.
 
Well... that kind of lockup would probably make me somewhat nervous. You should try some tests to see how solid it is.

We're missing some information here though. Who is the maker and have you talked to him (or they) about how the lock engages?

Sort of off topic, but what is the handle scale material? It looks really cool! :)
 
Maybe it needs to be weared in? Guess it will travel over if opened up several times.
 
Thanks for taking the time to comment, guys.

Yes, I have spoken to the maker and this thread is supposed to settle a difference of opinion about the lock.
He insists the face of the lockbar should remain absolutely flat, like it is now.

Looks to me that this way only a 90° corner of the lockbar is supporting the sloped base of the blade.
Shouldn't the lockbar-face be at an angle too, so there is more metal actually making contact?
Like DaveH, I first thought it must be an optic illusion in the photograph.

The (fantastic) handle material is red stabilized birch.

BTW, Is the lockbar-face on a Sebenza flat?
Could you have a fully flat lockbar if the base of the blade is hardly angled?
 
I've seen that many times and just don't understand it at all unless the makers realize that the lock will eventually break in as it wears and then move farther across the back of the blade. I've seen this done like that primarily with titanium locks because the ti is softer and will wear faster than an equal thickness of hardened stainless. If the lock is stainless however, it will probably be like that for a very long time without change. (use a magnet and see if steel or titanium.)

I recently had the opportunity to buy a Chris Reeve (Large Sebenza) locally but turned it down just because the lock engaged the same way as in this picture. Personally it scares me. I bought a $350 custom a few months back that is a fine piece of craftsmanship and it too engaged with just enough of the lock coming out to barely catch the blade. It made me so uncomfortable that I watched it closely for some time while carrying it and using it. In about a months time of use and carry everyday I noticed one day that the lock was now moving in far enough to cover the entire thickness of the lock on the back of the blade. It has pretty much broken in and stayed this way although I no longer carry it. I believe that the softer titanium lock is the reason the maker left it the way he did because his experience told him that it would eventually work its way into a proper seating of the lock.
 
I'm not sure I'm qualified to say, maybe you should check in the maker's forum.

I'd say if it passes the pressure test and a light spine whack you're OK. You can always send it back in for adjustment if required right?
 
My experience with framelocks has been that this is a very individual thing from knife to knife. What "looks" secure or insecure may not be the case in actual, practical use. I don't think you can draw any conclusions simply by looking at the situation.

Some reasonable spine-whacks as suggested above may give you some guidance--or maybe give the maker a call.

BTW--Nice knife. :cool:
 
Aside from how far lateral the lock engages, you also need to know the vertical engagement and how polished are both of the engagement surfaces.

Take a felt tip marker and color the tang. Then open and close the knife until you can see where the lock engages. Also, how "sticky" is the engagement of the lock? Apply pressure to the spine of the knife when open. Does the blade pull away from the blade stop? Does the lock shift at all?

I have a frame lock that engages about the same as this one, myabe less. It's one of the stoutest locks I have seen.

When executed properly, you would be surprised how little the lock has to engage to work correctly. At the same time, if it isn't done correctly, the lock could go all the way over and still fail.

Most makers can make a frame lock or liner lock that will function. Far less make them correctly.
 
I built a folder with a framelock that was a Knifekits.com kit. They design it to barely lock noting that you very carefully file on it until it snaps to the depth you want. The original version which looked like yours scared me to death for fear that it would fail. I filed for a while and then stupidly decided to hurry the process using a grinder. It fixed it and it locks very well, but there is a little too much play in the blade to keep it from being perfect. I should have stuck with the file. Its tough being a Type A trying very tiny detail work.
 
That looks like it might be a nice knife. Hard to tell, though.

What are your concerns?
 
stropper said:
BTW, Is the lockbar-face on a Sebenza flat?
Could you have a fully flat lockbar if the base of the blade is hardly angled?
Click to expand...

Well I'm looking at my sebenza now and to me it seems the base of the blade is angled, and the lockbar-face is flat although the edges of the face are mitered (if thats the right term). Hope that helps. BTW the lockbar covers a little more than 1/2 the blade. If I push in on the lockbar it covers about 2/3 of the blade.
 
Sometimes, with liner locks and framelocks, there's a very quick "break-in" period, where the lock will move quickly across the face of the blade tang. I would not test that lock in any way (spine whack, etc.) until you break it in a bit more. What I'd do is, say, 20 hard openings to get some quick wear. After a few of those openings, squeeze the knife tightly in your hand so the lock gets finger pressure, and torque the blade a bit. What we're trying to do is quickly wear the lock face in a bit, and let the frame settle anywhere it needs to. If 20 doesn't work, try 50. There, now the lock should have a lot more solid contact with the blade tang. Now you can spine whack and torque test it for real.

Joe
 
That lock is looking like a strong argument for an axis or a lockback. :eek:
 
That picture is over in Shop Talk and what wasn't mentioned in this post is that it hasn't been heat treated or final fitted yet.
Look fine to me before heat treat. Lockbar at 90 degrees square and the engagement area of the blade at 8.5 to 10 degree angle.

But then, what do I know?
:D
 
It is perfectly fine. Notice how the blade tang is angled and that if the lock wears in the lock face will lay flatter against the tang. If the lock face was angled to meet the tang now pressure on the lock would force it to push out and fail. Drop a stick of wood in your miter and cut it at a 15 degree angle. Take the cut ends and push them together, you will see they want to slip past each other. Now flip one piece around and push the flat end against the angled piece. They will stick much better.

Sebenzas have a flat cut lock-bar. So do customs from Onion, Mayo, Elishewitz, Carson, Obenauf and others in my collection.
 
Kit Carson said:
That picture is over in Shop Talk and what wasn't mentioned in this post is that it hasn't been heat treated or final fitted yet.
Look fine to me before heat treat. Lockbar at 90 degrees square and the engagement area of the blade at 8.5 to 10 degree angle.

But then, what do I know?
:D
Click to expand...

I'll take your word for it any day! :D
 
I hate to bore anyone but I have been called a troll on the shoptalk forum, so here's what I posted there as a reply:

I'm the so-called troll Deviant is talking about.
(only I'm not)

First of all, the 90° thing.
I own only 2 framelocks and had a Mission MPF1-S at hand when I came across the pictures of Deviant's knife.
It's lockbar is cut at the same angle as the blade and provides exellent lockup. (so are most of my linerlocks)
I'm not sure of course but it really looks like this isn't the result of wear but was done like this at the factory.

My mistake, I'm sure.

I started a thread in the general forum asking for opinions.
Most people seem to think it wil be OK when it sets and that it just needs a little wear for the lockbar to make more contact with the blade or at least engage the blade some more.

Mr Carson (love your work) posted in that thread to remark that the blade has not yet been heat-treated and finished.
Deviant himself immediately intervenes in THIS thread when the first 2 posts aren't without some (constructive) critisim, and also stresses that it still needs to be hardened and finished.

This strikes me as odd, since on the Flemish forum where he first posted the photographs of this knife, this is not an issue.
In fact, he describes the lockup as '100%', like it is right now in the picture.
Another maker had to point out that it hasn't been hardened or finished yet and that it will set with use but Deviant dismisses these arguments.
I asked him myself if he's counting on wear or final finish to make the lockup more secure but that wasn't the case according to him.
It only became "the case" after people on bladeforums started to make the comments I made.

My conclusion: This difference of opinion has been a learning experience for Deviant.
(all I got from him was a spelling flame)

Please understand I would not have posted here again if I hadn't been called a troll. It's easy to become a troll on forementioned european forum. The only comments allowed on knives posted there are 'waauw' and 'beautiful', any constructive critisism will make you a troll over there.
 
I asked the same about Strider lockups and only a corner of the lockbar touching the tang a while back at the Badlands and here's the answer I recieved along with my original question.

Question:
Can someone explain how a super sharp tang angle on the production Strider framelocks is a good thing?


Answer:
Cut & Pasted from another forum as quoted by Mick:



"The reason we only want contact at the lower section of the lock bar is this:

1. For the most solid lock, you need two points of contact, as far apart as possible. (bump stop and lock face)

2. For the most solid lock, your lock contact should be as far away from the center line of the pivot as possible. This keeps your lock from "rolling" off the blade.

3. No matter how far from the pivot center your lock surface is, if its contaminated with crap (sand), it will fail. We send knives into some nasty ****. This is a huge concern for us. By making contact at the lowest section only, it creates a "**** vent" above the lock surface. That is the same reason we make our detent hole go all the way through the blade....its a "**** vent"."
The quote was provided by Brian Huber at the Badlands.

Personally I'd rather have the tang mated to the lockbar but Mick's reasoning sounds intellegent too. Also, I agree that there is a break in period that will gradually move the lockbar to it's final resting place on frame/liner locks.


oil

ps. I apologise ahead of time if I'm not supposed to post quotes from other forums but it seems pertinant.
 
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