Framelock lockup (pic)

[Nosmo]

I would take the advise of Joe Talmadge above.
If after that, the lock up still looked the same as your original photo , then I , as a user, would be concerned.

 

[Megalobyte]

There are 2 reasons I think why makers build knives where the lockbar engages the tang only slightly. One is, it's long been understood that there is a break in period where the lock will move a little more to the right, the irony is, a well made lock, that's been properly hardened, will really only move very little due to wear, but it should at least move slightly further into engagement.

The other reason makers do it is I think simply a matter of taste, the maker's and the buyer's, a lot of people want the lockbar to have only slight engagement, they like it this way, it looks and seems
"right" to them, in fact, i'd say more people prefer slight engagement (hoping for some minor wear in) than too much engagement, and when people see a lockbar that begins its life even a little too far to the right, it seems like a defect, the further irony is, some of the best makers design their lockbars this way, with a lot of engagement, whereas other makers, also highly regarded, have a different view and want the bar to offer only slight engagement when the knife is new.

Quick example. Tom Mayo makes a remarkable framelock, many of his TnTs start out with the lock bar having not much more engagement than what we saw in your picture, yet his locks are some of the best out there IMO. Then, take a look at Scott Cook's Lochsa. Scott is also a very talented maker, and his lockbars engage far more of the tang than you'll ever see on a TnT, or any number of other high-end customs. Who is right? Both probably, its a matter of taste and design, and I trust Scott's lockup and Tom's lockup equally, though they are very different.

Now, if I received a new TnT with a lockbar that went as far over as a new Lochsa, I'd be concerned, because it's not supposed to be that way, just like I'd be concerned if I had a new Lochsa that had only about 20% of the tang engaged by the lock, though frankly, I could probably live with that one, which shows my bias.

Another quick example. Bob Terzuola, one of the original makers of tac/utility folders likes his liners to engage the tang pretty close to the middle, this is very different from where most makers make their liners engage the tang, most makers build the knife so that the left side of the liner is very close to being flush with the left side of the tang, but Bob T feels that having the liner further into the tang, with more engagement, is the way to go, and offers more security. Again, who is right? Hard to say.

My peeve is a lockbar (liner or frame) that engages too much of the tang, it's just because of the way I was taught locks should be, I came to feel that locks should start out engaging very little of the tang and wear in slightly from there, but then I see the Lochsas and realize, Scott wants it this way and who the hell am I to question him or his design, so, on the Lochsa, I revised my typical thinking on where a lockbar should engage, and to some extent the same is true on Sebenzas, they generally engage at least 50% of the tang, whereas a perfect TnT will only engage maybe 25-30%, the much more important considerations are of course the relative angles that exist betwen the lockbar face and the sloped tang face, if they are correct, the lock is good no matter where it engages, if they are bad, no amount of engagement will help, since more engagement, but bad angles, only means the lock will have a few more mm to slip before it fails.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

One is, it's long been understood that there is a break in period where the lock will move a little more to the right...

That seems well frankly a horrible policy to me unless the maker is clear that the knife isn't fully functional when it is bought and needs user conditioning as Joe describes in order to reach maximum stability.

Yes most people on the forums realize that this is an issue with liners and integrals, however do users in general. Is it stated on websites or other promotional material for the knives?

As an additional point, locks which barely engage tremendously weaken the lock bar by allow shear failures at the face of the lock, i.e., get the blade stuck in something and press down hard on the handle.

How significant that is of course depends on the nature of the folder.

-Cliff

 

[Duffin444]

Cliff,

How would a break in period be avoided? I think that almost every reasonable person realizes that there is a break in period with nearly everything, even cars have break in periods. It is the mark of a well manufactured item that an unavoidable occurrence is accounted for. If the maker made a knife that had no break in period but the knife failed more readily after a few months, would they then have to post promotional material advertising this?

-Duffin

Edit: cleanup

 

[Cliff Stamp]

How would a break in period be avoided?

Lots of lock types don't. Some custom liners don't as the makers will seat the locks.

...even cars have break in periods.

The breaks, seat belts and air bags, work right away which would be the analogue to a lock on a knife. The engine break in period is well known and you are told it directly, plus it comes with natural use fairly quickly, in the above as Joe describes you have to seat the lock by inertial openings without this it takes a long time, I have carried them for weeks without seeing any change, the knife would long have been sharpened many times over.

If the maker made a knife that had no break in period but the knife failed more readily after a few months, would they then have to post promotional material advertising this?

I would hope so.

-Cliff

 

[Chiro75]

This same question was asked of people who actually make knives for a living and the answer was an unequivocal "if the lock works, and it's designed right, and it passes a spine whack test, etc then it's probably fine." But, that's just the opinion of some really good knifemakers, some of whom have 30+ years of experience, so you may want to take others' opinions on it as gospel.

 

[Kit Carson]

I'd add that the discussion was about a framelock. With a side plate of .160 and a 1/3d engagement, that is equal to a .054 liner lock with full engagement.

I don't see it as much a "break in" period as a allowing for customer use to include "slinging" it open, squeezing it with the grip of Superman, and a hundred other variables that are beyond a makers control once it leaves his shop.

1/3d of a .160 lockbar, cut on a 90 degree angle, biting into a 8.5 - 10 degree uphill ramp on the blade is sufficient for most humans. If the customer wants more engagement, most makers will accomodate that. If they want angles drastically changed, I'd imagine the maker would pass on it. I would.

SAEs have their opinions, I have mine.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

With a side plate of .160 and a 1/3d engagement, that is equal to a .054 liner lock with full engagement.

Assuming the above picture isn't significantly distorted, it is closer to 1/5, so the liner would be only 1/32" which is pretty thin. But this isn't the most significant problem because a liner making full contact would actually be stronger than an integral making partial contact of the same width, because the linear could not shear crack and the integral would readily.

If all the face is contacted you just have a compressive force which will act to dent in the face of the lock bar and try to bend the bar as a whole. Both of these take a lot of force even with thin bars. However if the same force is applied to partial contacts it can induce a large shear because part of the material is under a compressive load and the part right next to it is not.

I easily broke a piece of the face of a Buck/Strider liner making partial contact with just wrist strain while I was sitting down so the force was not significant and would have no effect at all on a liner of similar thickness. Even really cheap liners on the $2 knives are not trival to actually break by hand, they of course can disengage readily, but compress cracking the whole liner is vastly more difficult, raw strength is rarely an issue.

You could see this readily if you take a small piece of wood and hit it with a hammer driving it into the ground like a tent peg, now do the same with a larger piece of wood, but make contact on the side of it with the same area as on the smaller piece. You can readily crack off a piece of the larger wood even though the smaller one was just compressed. The smaller the area you restrict the force to, the easier it will be to crack. If the forces come it an angles the break will happen even sooner.

-Cliff

 

[Kit Carson]

Cliff, like I said, I have my opinion and you have yours. Sounds like you need to stick with a fixed blade

What it all boils down to is a tradeoff. No doubt in my mind that I can make one you won't get to fail (notice I didn't say destroy). I'd have to put you on my waiting list so it would be about 3 years before you get one to test though.

Customers don't like them if they need a coin to disengage them and I don't blame them. Customers like them smooth. Customers like them with a good detent.

I'd dare say that building a liner lock or a framelock that would stand up to any of the other lock types is easy if it's done properly.

Of course that is just my opinion, and I'm sticking with it.

 

[Megalobyte]

Cliff, like I said, I have my opinion and you have yours. Sounds like you need to stick with a fixed blade

What it all boils down to is a tradeoff. No doubt in my mind that I can make one you won't get to fail (notice I didn't say destroy). I'd have to put you on my waiting list so it would be about 3 years before you get one to test though.

Customers don't like them if they need a coin to disengage them and I don't blame them. Customers like them smooth. Customers like them with a good detent.

I'd dare say that building a liner lock or a framelock that would stand up to any of the other lock types is easy if it's done properly.

Of course that is just my opinion, and I'm sticking with it.

Hi Kit, you might remember, you and I had a discussion about some of these lock issues a few years back, I remember it well.

Is there any way to give the lock bar a very strong bend, but have the angles such that it doesnt stick or get jammed if opened hard?

As for smooth actions and crisp detents, well, you my friend are the king.

 

[Chiro75]

I was at a show a couple weekends ago and there was a Strider SnG that had been very lightly used, but the previous owner had put a major bend into the lockbar for some stupid reason. I had to use two hands to open it and I could barely get the lock to close. It wasn't "jammed" feeling or stick in the least. Just took major power to move the lock over to unlock it! So, yes, there is a way!

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Sounds like you need to stick with a fixed blade

Just a lock back or compression does fine. Possibly axis as well, have not used one of them though due to blade style.

Can you make liners which are stable under torques - Joe described custom folders at a show years back which were very slight in build but had very secure locks, he has more experience with them than me so if they were secure for him I would assume they would be for me.

Of course the work you do with a small gentlemans knife and what you would do with a larger folder are not the same. All the 4" class "tactical" folders are far overbuilt if they are not designed to handle wrist level strain, unless the knives are ground like Opinels.

Pick up a Buck/Strider and check to see if you would indeed argue that you should not be able to apply wrist level forces to the knife, based on the blade geometry it should be able to take body weight loads, it is 3/16" thick with a low sabre grind, hardly geared towards light cutting.

Take even one of the inexpensive well made FRN lockbacks try to induce similar failures. Liners do have advantages over lockbacks of course. The are smoother and easier to open and as well close one handed. Plus some lockbacks can give a little when cutting. Neither of these matter to me, but I have seen many people balk at lockbacks for both of these reasons.

However when comparing them to compression locks none of that applies and I don't see any advantage user wise. Compressions can also be moved under torques, but it takes a lot more force. I have leaned into a few and it seems to me that the level of force required will strain the blade and or grossly damage the handle.

I'll eventually break one and check, but it is way above what I have seen on liners and integrals.

-Cliff

 

[Megalobyte]

Just a lock back or compression does fine. Possibly axis as well, have not used one of them though due to blade style.

Can you make liners which are stable under torques - Joe described custom folders at a show years back which were very slight in build but had very secure locks, he has more experience with them than me so if they were secure for him I would assume they would be for me.

Of course the work you do with a small gentlemans knife and what you would do with a larger folder are not the same. All the 4" class "tactical" folders are far overbuilt if they are not designed to handle wrist level strain, unless the knives are ground like Opinels.

Pick up a Buck/Strider and check to see if you would indeed argue that you should not be able to apply wrist level forces to the knife, based on the blade geometry it should be able to take body weight loads, it is 3/16" thick with a low sabre grind, hardly geared towards light cutting.

Take even one of the inexpensive well made FRN lockbacks try to induce similar failures. Liners do have advantages over lockbacks of course. The are smoother and easier to open and as well close one handed. Plus some lockbacks can give a little when cutting. Neither of these matter to me, but I have seen many people balk at lockbacks for both of these reasons.

However when comparing them to compression locks none of that applies and I don't see any advantage user wise. Compressions can also be moved under torques, but it takes a lot more force. I have leaned into a few and it seems to me that the level of force required will strain the blade and or grossly damage the handle.

I'll eventually break one and check, but it is way above what I have seen on liners and integrals.

-Cliff

Cliff, are you saying you have never found a liner or framelock you were satisfied with? Besides a Sebenza of course.

Chiro, the SnGs can be very stiff right from Strider, some are stiffer than others, I had one which had a lock that needed a stronger bend, so I gave it one and it was fine. I have also had knives where the bend was stronger than it needed to be, which generally makes the action less smooth than it might otherwise be, and a slight reduction in the bend made the knife much smoother, and without losing any lock security. I suppose there is a sweet spot where the bend is strong enough, to keep the lock tight against the tang and resist accidental disengagement, but not so strong that the lock is too hard to disengage or the action gets too stiff.

 

[Chiro75]

Megalobyte, the SnG I'm talking about is the one Rwan picked up and it had been messed with my the previous owner (bent the lock way over and also drilled a channel into the detent ball hole in the blade to try to make it easier to open). So it had definitely been messed with post-purchase.

 

[Megalobyte]

Megalobyte, the SnG I'm talking about is the one Rwan picked up and it had been messed with my the previous owner (bent the lock way over and also drilled a channel into the detent ball hole in the blade to try to make it easier to open). So it had definitely been messed with post-purchase.

Do you think drilling the channel voided the warrantee?

Well, hey, I try to avoid using power tools on my expensive knives, but, some people really like to tinker...

In general though, I do like a pretty strong bend on the lock, I have a JWS liner lock that has a VERY strong bend, which gives the lock an extremely secure feel, yet, no matter how you open the knife, the lock never sticks and while stiff, is never hard to disengage. I think different makers have different ideas on how this should be.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Cliff, are you saying you have never found a liner or framelock you were satisfied with?

In terms of light utility cutting sure, but not something which is stable under torques. I would rather liners than integrals because integrals wear massively faster. Every time I used one significantly I would drive the liner right across the blade tang through grip pressure. The first time I did that with a Sebenza I had to pry the lock release apart. It didn't take me long to abandon that as a serious user.

-Cliff

 

[Kit Carson]

Cliff, like I said earlier, you need to print a big sign and hang it on the wall...

"Fixed blades only for me"...

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I have lots of folders Kit some don't even have locks, just no heavy use liners or integrals. There are other types of folding knives available.

-Cliff