Framelock VS Linerlock

[marthinus]

But I think the whole thing about "your hand helps close the lock when you grip it" is nothing but a myth. If you really think the squishy skin is going to oppose any force that would potentially collapse the lock... Well I wouldn't count on it.

I dont know about the skin preventing the collapse of a lock but here is my understanding there of.

When you cut with a framelock your hand squeezes the lockup from say 50% to 80%, that limits the chances of the lock slipping from the face tang. When you grip a framelock really hard when doing work and say you would cut through the material and as you do a sudden pull back hit the knife the hard grip you have will prevent the lock from 'jumping' if you would hit the spine of the blade. I hate to use the word spine tap/whack because that is not what we are discussing, but on a liner the hard grip would not be affective because of the scale preventing your hand from stopping the lock to 'jump'. (Damn I just confused myself a bit....does this make sense ? )

A well designed framelock can take the change in lockup without wear. This can be due to the face being treated etc. Liner locks tend to do the same when used for hard cutting, but in my experience does not take the wear that well.

 

[JNewell]

I don't think you can really generalize about lock strength between these two - too many variables. Somewhere there is a series of posts by STR on this issue that are very interesting reading. I also agree that the grip thing is highly knife- and user-specific. Knives that work well for one person may be a flop or worse for another...I have had great knives that just didn't work for me. Two recent examples: the CRK Umnumzaan and the Russell Acies.

Same thing to me. A frame lock might be a little bit better because of the added surface area/thickness that comes in contact with the blade tang.

But I think the whole thing about "your hand helps close the lock when you grip it" is nothing but a myth. If you really think the squishy skin is going to oppose any force that would potentially collapse the lock... Well I wouldn't count on it.

 

[forcedestrike]

By cheap I mean in terms of cost which usually means skimping on quality control and/or materials which makes me nervous regarding the reliability of a lock as opposed to a high quality liner lock which comes from a reputable manufacturer.

Pretty self explanatory really, not sure it warranted a

And if your confused regarding the existance of cheap framelocks I am quite surprised since judging by your post count you should know of a more than a couple controversial companies that manufacture framelocks "en masse" for under 20$

Cheap frame lock? Can you delve into that a bit deeper?

By cheap I am only assuming that you mean not built well

 

[clockman]

Frame lock all the way. Im partial to my CRKs and RJ Martin's thou.

 

[hardheart]

Frame locks do not provide an increased locking surface. Post 18 shows that well, it is just the fact that the tang face and lock face are at an angle to each other and therefore will contact at a point. The lock should also not engage between 50 and 80% just by hand pressure, that isn't what I would call locked. If I could move my front door an extra 30% after locking it, then I wouldn't consider my house secure.

 

[cziv]

Frame locks do not provide an increased locking surface. Post 18 shows that well, it is just the fact that the tang face and lock face are at an angle to each other and therefore will contact at a point. The lock should also not engage between 50 and 80% just by hand pressure, that isn't what I would call locked. If I could move my front door an extra 30% after locking it, then I wouldn't consider my house secure.

What kind of liner locks are you using? Look at the lock up on a Military then a Sebenza or an XM-18 and you say the Military has a wider lock to tang surface? I look at the scuff/scratch on the tang and that says the framelock has a huge connection by comparison.

 

[hardheart]

The lockbar is thicker, but the contact is not. The scuff on the tang is created as the knife opens and locks, the leading edge of the lockbar moves across the tang until the knife is locked open fully, the width of the scuff is not the width of the area in constant contact. Like I posted, the pic of the Pinnacle shows the gap between the lockbar and the tang. The only way for the contact area to increase is for the surface(s) to wear in, and by a fair amount. I also did not say that a Military, or any other liner lock, would have a wider contact area, just that a frame lock doesn't either. The leading edge is the leading edge, no matter how thick the rest of the bar is

 

[cziv]

The lockbar is thicker, but the contact is not. The scuff on the tang is created as the knife opens and locks, the leading edge of the lockbar moves across the tang until the knife is locked open fully, the width of the scuff is not the width of the area in constant contact. Like I posted, the pic of the Pinnacle shows the gap between the lockbar and the tang. The only way for the contact area to increase is for the surface(s) to wear in, and by a fair amount. I also did not say that a Military, or any other liner lock, would have a wider contact area, just that a frame lock doesn't either. The leading edge is the leading edge, no matter how thick the rest of the bar is

I hear you but I think you over generalize about this.

The Pinnacle is the Pinnacle. I found that the framelock knives, they come with varying degrees of angle that allows for more (in many cases) lots more of full lock bar engagement.

Check out this thread and the tang to lock engagement http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=717674

I just checked 2 Hinderers, a ZT 0301, a Kershaw Random Leek SS framelock and all are cut at an angle; lock bar to tang, that allows full engagement of the lock bar. That's a lot of beef behind the blade.

I even slid a peice of cigarette paper in the ZT 0301 the lock is cut at a perfect angle - tore it out and had a heck of a time getting that little white square of paper off the tang.

I think it depends on the knife with the Pinnacle in this thread making a poor showing in regard to what you and I are discussing. I can agree to disagree with you on this.

 

[hardheart]

The issue then is the angle contact between the blade and lockbar only works at a specific angle of bend in the bar as well. Any earlier or later lockup then reduces the contact back down to a point again. The geometry of this style of this lock can be affected by many design factors, but it comes down to two planes intersecting as one travels across an arc. That means you can't have full lockup unless the material wears in/out, or if you design it with full contact at the start, wear will reduce it.

Use of quality materials with proper design minimizes lock up issues and extends the life of the lock. It just comes down to buying quality. I do prefer designs where wear always increases the load bearing surface until the lock is seated fully.

 

[Buffalohump]

I have knives with both types of lock. I honestly dont know what the fuss is all about. There are also back locks, axis locks, compression locks, arc locks and stud locks.... and probably a good couple of others I've forgotten to mention. Every manufacturer claims theirs is the best.

I really dont know what people are doing that could cause a knife to close up on their hands. Quite frankly if you are going to use a folder that hard, you should carry a fixed blade. FYI hundreds of members here carry slipjoints every day and I believe the vast majority of them still have ten fingers. The instrument or how its built is not nearly as critical as the person using it. Use it sensibly and even the most basic lock will be sufficient.

 

[cziv]

I have knives with both types of lock. I honestly dont know what the fuss is all about. There are also back locks, axis locks, compression locks, arc locks and stud locks.... and probably a good couple of others I've forgotten to mention. Every manufacturer claims theirs is the best.

I really dont know what people are doing that could cause a knife to close up on their hands. Quite frankly if you are going to use a folder that hard, you should carry a fixed blade. FYI hundreds of members here carry slipjoints every day and I believe the vast majority of them still have ten fingers. The instrument or how its built is not nearly as critical as the person using it. Use it sensibly and even the most basic lock will be sufficient.

My Dad (90 yrs old this past July) has carried the same little slipjoint for the last 15 - 20 years. I bought it for him because his last one was sharpened down to a toothpick. I ding myself occasionally, screwing around with my knives but he never gets a cut.