Free Ivory Fridays for 3/6/15

Mark Knapp

Mark Knapp

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The question for this weeks Free Ivory Friday is.... Why won't bans on the sale of ivory in the U.S. help stop poaching in Africa. You get extra points if you give an example of other bans that do not work. What have we banned in the U.S. that China has not followed our example and also banned.
 
Because if its banned in the USA but not worldwide there is still a market for it. A BIG market. The other thing that pops in my mind first is designer drugs. As soon as we make a chemical formula illegal here in the US, China changes the formula just enough to be able to continue exporting that garbage.
 
Hello Mark,

Restrictions and bans are usually ineffective for many reasons. Our domestic ban and China's recent tempory ban on Ivory will be largely symbolic, especially for China. China's artisans are supposed to be utilizing Ivory from a dwindling pre 2008 stockpile. But most of their beautifully carved masterpieces in Ivory are being carved from poached, underground, black market stock. When an organization or a nation bans the legitimate harvesting of Ivory, poaching increases and the black market thrives. China's enforcement of any restrictions will be next to nothing.

I will provide an example of a ban we enforce here in the US, that China completely ignores ... The International Bear Parts Law. The gall bladders are of particular interest to China and many other Asian markets. Bears are actually farmed in many Asian countries and their bile is extracted in a number of cruel ways. One example, the Bears are fitted with life long catheters, while the bile drips out of the never healing hole. If the ban on bear parts did not exist, China could obtain legally harvested bile from all over the world. In addition, I dont believe their would be much of a need for these sickening bear farms to exist.

Another example of an international ban, that most of the world adhears too ... Yet, China scoffs at ... Shark Fin harvesting. We all know just how horrible this practice is and how it is destroying the ecosystem ... But China could care less.

Current bans on Ivory products will only serve to further the exploitation of Elephants and other Ivory bearing wildlife ... Alive and long extinct.
 
#1 Asia uses most of the Poached Ivory out there. just about all of the Elephant Ivory in the US today was imported before the 1989 Ban as hunting trophy's, from Culling operations or as a souvenir grandpa brought back from his travels. what good does it do to Ban something the USA doesn't even use?


#2 if people want something Bad enough they will find a way to get it. look at prohibition, the sale of Alcohol was Banned from 1920 to 1933 but people still got drunk every Saturday night. the same thing is happing today with Narcotics. cocaine, Meth, Heroin and in most places Marijuana are Illegal but people find a way to get them.



if the USA and other country's want to save Elephants then instead of making a big show by destroying the poached ivory they collected from smugglers over the years they should flood the market with it. the animal is already dead so why not use that ivory to drive the price way down, if the price is way down then poachers will Kill less Elephants because it now wouldn't really be worth the trouble. Supply and demand.
 
because 1. most of the people killing the elephants are A. doing it illegally already And B. selling most of it the poached ivory to Asia.
2. as lscg said if we cant keep crack off the streets how are we going to stop the import of ivory which cant be sniffed out by dogs.
3. one to help the elephants is to try to work out a deal with China (who needs our trade) and threaten to raise taxes on imported goods if THEY don't do something. and even then this might not work because China laughs at contracts and other nations laws (like copyright).
 
bronyblacksmith said:
2. as lscg said if we cant keep crack off the streets how are we going to stop the import of ivory which cant be sniffed out by dogs.
Click to expand...

LSCG said:
#2 if people want something Bad enough they will find a way to get it. look at prohibition, the sale of Alcohol was Banned from 1920 to 1933 but people still got drunk every Saturday night. the same thing is happing today with Narcotics. cocaine, Meth, Heroin and in most places Marijuana are Illegal but people find a way to get them.
Click to expand...

You guys had good answers but not so in the case of illegal drug use, the research does not show a wide spread use of illegal ivory in the US. Some, yes, but not much. We have too many alternative sources for legal ivory like ancient mammoth and walrus ivory, pre-act ivory, hippo teeth and warthog teeth. There's no reason to import illegal ivory here, especially with the prices being paid in China so high.

Anyway, good answers so far, keep them coming everybody.
 
a country ban won't work because not everybody follows the rules when they aren't in that country. As an American, I'm not about to drive as fast as I want and claim I was following the Autoban speed limits. additionally, with poor economic standings in many places where ivory is found and illegally taken, it makes much more economic sense to break a law. here in Texas, I have a house, truck, and 3 meals a day. getting in trouble would suck pretty hard compared to that. But if I was already hiking miles a day for clean water or burning cow dung to heat a shack, the chance for a lucrative score (as unfortunate as poaching is made out) is much more worthwhile.

the risk vs reward is very high, just like the market for drugs. sure you can land in jail, but you can make a fortune (people think). if we de-incentivize the practice, it makes sense for people to stop. just like we're seeing now in CO, as pot becomes legal, fewer cartel groups are involved in growing or moving it, the money just isn't there. However, I'm not sure we're going to be able to take the value out of ivory, since it is such a popular crafting material and has been held in high regards for years.
 
My opinion (and it's only that) is there are many people who appreciate "feel good" legislation. Frankly, I believe this is an example of that. There are well meaning people, ignorant people, frustrated people, and many more that believe if a law is passed, it necessarily means others will appreciate it, adhere to it, and in this case, other countries jump on board, too. I'm not saying laws are bad-don't get me wrong. It's just that when so much data says the U.S. isn't markedly importing illegal ivory, taking such a stance as to hurt those who've abided by laws seems irresponsible.

Simple math would seem to lead us to an obvious answer to why the passing of the law wouldn't stop the poaching. If we aren't the consumers of that poached ivory, someone else is. And likely will continue buying said poached ivory. Thus, the poachers will continue to have a market-that isn't currently the U.S nor would it become U.S.

But....I just read a short article that came out on the 6th, talking about China's new ivory ban. Is this a sign that they're following the U.S.'s lead? I kind of think not. Unfortunately, the writer of the article seems to think its not going to help. Thanks to the new ban, Chinese citizens can now not buy carved ivory products in Namibia and Zimbabwe and take them home for personal use. And this ban is for 1 year. Obviosuly sweeping reform. The writer even mentions the possibility that this ban was introduced and passed in an effort to undermine the case for a broader ban.

The reality is, there are MANY people that want ivory in China. Those people help make up the culture of that place, just as we do within the U.S. The culture tends to drive what happens in a given place and what is acceptable. Fact is, ivory is acceptable and desired in China and very little that we do in regards to passing legislation in the U.S. is going to change the culture in China in reference to ivory. Therefor, there's going to remain a market for the poached ivory, likely for some time to come.

I hope that wasn't too "ranty"... The whole thing is a little frustrating. Thanks Mark for all your help and educating us on much of this.

Jeremy
 
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This is this week ivory.

I have put everyone in that gave me an answer.....

and the winner for this weeks Free Ivory Friday is Ken H. Ken, send me your shipping info.

Thanks to all that played, see you again Friday.
 
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Mark, Just a short note to say I got the mammoth ivory scales today. They are GREAT scales! I do think the actual scales look better than your photo. I plan to use them on a frame handled Bowie I've been planning for a while. THANK YOU!!!

Ken H>
 
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