I recently bought 5 oil stones (2 india and 3 Arkansas). I'm finding a steep learning curve to creating a good edge going freehand. When I watch Youtube videos of folks using guided systems like the Edge Pro and Wicked Edge, they seem to create amazing edges with ease. Should I have gone with the guided systems or can I achieve those same results I see on YouTube going freehand?
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Freehand vs guided, which results in a better edge?
- Thread starter Marty_E
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Skill in using the tool and knowledge of what makes a sharp edge, either by guided setup or freehand, is what matters. Actually knowing when an edge is fully apexed is the main thing; 99% of 'freshly sharpened' but still 'dull' knives owe their condition to a lack of understanding on this point. And knowing and being able to do what's necessary to get it there is most of the rest of it. Whether it's a guided sharpener or not, it won't matter either way. If the fundamentals are understood starting out, either will work. If not, neither will.
A guided sharpening tool is at it's most useful in teaching how a steadily-maintained angle contributes to sharpness. But an awful lot of first-time users of such tools still stop short of going the full distance to completely apex the edge, and then still wonder why the edge isn't as sharp as they think it should be. The 'fix' is always the same: keep going until a full-length burr is formed, and then carefully reduce & remove the burr to produce a fully-apexed and durable, sharp edge. My own favorite mantra in sharpening is, ''The cutting never lies.'' If the edge is truly sharp, it'll cut as one expects it to for a given task; if it isn't fully sharp, it won't cut well, or maybe not at all. Edges that won't cut are always a result of an incomplete apexing of the edge or not fully removing burrs along the edge, or sometimes a result of sharpening at much too wide an angle. All of these same errors can be made using either a guided tool or by freehand, and they can all be fixed with either method as well. Knowing the fundamentals and developing the mindset for sharpening (patience, focus), while training the hands to do it with consistency and repeatability (practice, practice, practice), are what will make the difference.
I learned the fundamentals while using a guided system and then gave that up in pursuing freehand sharpening; almost all of my sharpest edges have come since then, after I put the guided system away.
David
A guided sharpening tool is at it's most useful in teaching how a steadily-maintained angle contributes to sharpness. But an awful lot of first-time users of such tools still stop short of going the full distance to completely apex the edge, and then still wonder why the edge isn't as sharp as they think it should be. The 'fix' is always the same: keep going until a full-length burr is formed, and then carefully reduce & remove the burr to produce a fully-apexed and durable, sharp edge. My own favorite mantra in sharpening is, ''The cutting never lies.'' If the edge is truly sharp, it'll cut as one expects it to for a given task; if it isn't fully sharp, it won't cut well, or maybe not at all. Edges that won't cut are always a result of an incomplete apexing of the edge or not fully removing burrs along the edge, or sometimes a result of sharpening at much too wide an angle. All of these same errors can be made using either a guided tool or by freehand, and they can all be fixed with either method as well. Knowing the fundamentals and developing the mindset for sharpening (patience, focus), while training the hands to do it with consistency and repeatability (practice, practice, practice), are what will make the difference.
I learned the fundamentals while using a guided system and then gave that up in pursuing freehand sharpening; almost all of my sharpest edges have come since then, after I put the guided system away.
David
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Jason B.
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A sharpening system does not teach you how to sharpen, no matter the tools you still must be knowledgable enough in the subject of sharpening to understand what you are doing, when you are doing it.
When starting to sharpen you should stick with one or two stone/grits, you master the usage of this stone and THEN you add more stones to your progression. The Fine India and a strop would take you a long ways and provide you with a very good edge for EDC blades.
Everything takes time to learn, they say it takes doing something 2000 times or continually for 60 days to make it habit and form muscle memory. I'm a firm believer in this and have watched it with myself many times. I find even new waterstones can take me a few weeks to "get the feel for" and sometimes longer to master. All sharpening tools are different and even someone like myself needs time to learn a new stone, stick with it and keep practicing, it will come with time.
When starting to sharpen you should stick with one or two stone/grits, you master the usage of this stone and THEN you add more stones to your progression. The Fine India and a strop would take you a long ways and provide you with a very good edge for EDC blades.
Everything takes time to learn, they say it takes doing something 2000 times or continually for 60 days to make it habit and form muscle memory. I'm a firm believer in this and have watched it with myself many times. I find even new waterstones can take me a few weeks to "get the feel for" and sometimes longer to master. All sharpening tools are different and even someone like myself needs time to learn a new stone, stick with it and keep practicing, it will come with time.
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You're watching the wrong videos.
Seriously, you can achieve great results freehand... watch videos from JasonB, HeavyHanded, and others, for freehand sharpening tips and techniques.
You're watching the wrong videos.
Seriously, you can achieve great results freehand... watch videos from JasonB, HeavyHanded, and others, for freehand sharpening tips and techniques.
I was.
I was reading through the three post Jason B has linked in his footer. Very informative. When I get home I'm going to checkout the video links you provided.
Thank you!
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Either or both. Sometimes a burr will be visually obvious; at other times, it may be more easily felt than seen. With a little more practice, time and observation, you'll also begin to recognize the presence of burrs by how the edge behaves in cutting things like paper or fabric. In paper-cutting, a burred edge will usually allow some cutting, but will snag in or grab the paper as it does so. With fabrics or loosely-bound papers (toilet paper, paper towels, etc), a burr will often grab little fibers out of the material, which then cling to the burrs like little flags, indicating exactly where the burrs are; it's very convenient when it happens. In doing things like stropping an edge on leather with compound, a burr will also tend to scrub some compound or leather fibers off the surface, and that stuff will collect along the edge behind the burr, much like compound will collect under your fingernails if you were to scratch the strop with them. Some burrs will also scratch the strop in the stroke, which will leave a little scratched 'trail' behind the blade as it moves over the leather.
If the edge isn't fully apexed along portions of it's length, those portions will noticeably slip or drag over the material being cut, without cutting or snagging. You might also notice more resistance to easy cutting in the portions which might only be marginally apexed, but not fully there. A fully apexed edge will more obviously bite or dive right into material being cut.
Phonebook paper, newsprint and catalog/magazine pages are all pretty good at indicating all of these different conditions and behaviors of the edge, and burrs that might be present. These papers are all thin/light enough to deflect immediately if a burr is present, and simply won't be cut if the edge is inadequately apexed. Frequently pausing during sharpening to make a few cuts in these papers will give a very accurate picture of progress made by sharpening. Make very SLOW cuts from heel to tip, so you can see exactly where the edge isn't quite right.
For me, paper-cutting is the most dead-simple and visually obvious test for a burr-free and sharp edge, because it reveals so much about what's really going on, once you recognize what to look for.
David
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Hi,
Freehand results in a better edge
Jigs merely create prettier looking edges 
You've already done the hardest part, you acquired stones and tried sharpening a few times
now you simply have to think about what you're doing adjust the things you do
Please describe in detail what you do when sharpening and what happens
Can you hold an angle? Can you raise a burr? Stones loaded? Taking more than 5 minutes?
For every problem there is a solution
it doesn't take a lot of practice to get shaving sharp, just watch what you're doing, think about it, make adjustments ...
Here are a few good examples of the basics,
rub however long it takes to raise a tiny bur, cut it off at elevated angle , shave how to sharpen a knife - Joe Calton
Same basic sharpening method, raising the tiny burr is optional, these tips are "advanced" Extreme low grit sharpening : clay brick - Cliff Stamp
Same three step method, only shows newspaper slicing but it will shave Extreme low grit sharpening : 24 grit nubatama - Cliff Stamp
Shows actual arm hair shaving in this one Knife sharpening : 36 grit dressing stone - Cliff Stamp
You'll notice the difference between basic and advanced version is tiny.
simple jigs are simple to make
use a clamp, clamp to knife, rub on stone
use a wedge, wedge on stone, knife on wedge, thats your angle reference
stone on wedge (or against wall or book), stone tilted to maintain angle, you keep knife horizontal or vertical
stone against wedge, the stone is the hypotenuse
you can buy these or make these or ... some don't even require making
leaning your sharpening stone against a wall or book to make a bench stone sharmaker
Simple sharpening jig - stefanwolf88
How to Sharpen a Knife with Paul Sellers
PaulSellersKnifeSharpeningSystem.png
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depends on what you like in an edge bevel.
some like those crisp bevel termination lines, other like the curvaceous convex.
if you want to preserve the bevel line, use a fixture, if you like a convex bevel, do it by hand.
some like those crisp bevel termination lines, other like the curvaceous convex.
if you want to preserve the bevel line, use a fixture, if you like a convex bevel, do it by hand.
This is what I needed to know. I saw the videos on guided sharpeners and instantly thought that guided sharpeners removed all the mystery to creating a sharp edge.
I'll resist the urge to us all my stones and take your advice on sticking to one or two stones until I have the basics down before progressing.
bucketstove, great info. I'll look at it more in detail when I get hom from work.
This past weekend I attempted to sharpen an old pocket knife my dad had. I started out on an india course stone that I oiled up in preparation for sharpening. I then took a perm marker and marked the mfg bevel to make sure I was on mark with the angle. I then proceeded to hold the angle while applying very little pressure on the forward stroke and no pressure and the return stroke. I intially did about 20 strokes before doing the same on the oppsite side. After that I alternated sides after each forward stroke. I continued this for about 50 strokes. From there I progessed to a fine india stone doing 30 strokes alternately and did the same for each of the 3 Arkansas stones afterwards. I did check to feel if there was a burr, but felt nothing with each progression. I figured all I could do is hope for the best. After I was finished with the stones I stropped using just straight leather (no compound was used) for 30 passes on each side. When I checked my result on a piece of printer paper it just bent the paper over. Not even a nick.
I thought I was removing metal as I could see the oil had darkened significantly while cleaning the stones. It got darker with each finer grit stone I used. The entire process took about 40 minutes. That includes switching out stones and oiling and cleaning.
This past weekend I attempted to sharpen an old pocket knife my dad had. I started out on an india course stone that I oiled up in preparation for sharpening. I then took a perm marker and marked the mfg bevel to make sure I was on mark with the angle. I then proceeded to hold the angle while applying very little pressure on the forward stroke and no pressure and the return stroke. I intially did about 20 strokes before doing the same on the oppsite side. After that I alternated sides after each forward stroke. I continued this for about 50 strokes. From there I progessed to a fine india stone doing 30 strokes alternately and did the same for each of the 3 Arkansas stones afterwards. I did check to feel if there was a burr, but felt nothing with each progression. I figured all I could do is hope for the best. After I was finished with the stones I stropped using just straight leather (no compound was used) for 30 passes on each side. When I checked my result on a piece of printer paper it just bent the paper over. Not even a nick.
I thought I was removing metal as I could see the oil had darkened significantly while cleaning the stones. It got darker with each finer grit stone I used. The entire process took about 40 minutes. That includes switching out stones and oiling and cleaning.
Are you saying if I want those crisp straight looking mirrored bevels I need to use a guided sharpener?
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Hi,
Only 40 minutes? My first full sharpening I did easily an hour...
I was trying to be too deliberateWell, for your next sharpening,
since you seem to be able to hold the angle,
use a little more pressure,
like if you put stone on a scale ,
and your knife on the stone,
it should read about 1lb,
and then do 150-300 strokes on one side,
stop when you raise a burr,
then do same amount of strokes on other side,
then double the angle to cut burr off and do 1-4 alternating strokes using 100 grams or less (quarter pound)
check for burr again, check slicing shaving, if too snaggy/scratchy, cut off burr again
then do 10-20 alternating passes at original angle (not double)
and you're done
the whole thing should take 10 minutes or less
simply raising the burr it should be able to slice paper but snaggy with dust/clingers
and will even shave painfully/scratchily
when you remove the burr it should slice smooth and shave without extreme discomfort
do all this on one stone, no point in moving on to finer grits until you raise a burr and cut it off
thats why I linked those videos, with a bit of practice it can be done with 24 grit 36 grit
the coarse india is 100 grit so you might start with the fine side ... 220 or 320 should work about the same
if you're not there in 10 minutes, press a little harder or increase angle
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I used to do nothing but free hand sharpening. Didn't know there was such a thing as EP or WE. Finally broke down and bought an Edge Pro after I learned about them. It's true, you must know what you are doing when sharpening with or without a tool to maintain alignment, however with the Edge Pro I find I put a mirror edge on everything. Even if I go back and establish a more course microbevel. The machine has helped me sharpen with more precision and speed than I could ever achieve working at it free hand. Without a doubt there are many people on and off this forum that could sharpen better than I, but I am very happy with the results my machine helps me reach. Still it takes time, patience and a lot of finesse to get a proper edge. Machine or not.
bucketstove, I'll give that a try.
So if I understand this correctly the first stone I use is to get to an apex which results in a burr. Then you remove the burr cleanly to have an edge that cuts. Each stone used after the initial stone that was used to create the apex is to polish the edge bevel. Is my understanding correct?
So if I understand this correctly the first stone I use is to get to an apex which results in a burr. Then you remove the burr cleanly to have an edge that cuts. Each stone used after the initial stone that was used to create the apex is to polish the edge bevel. Is my understanding correct?
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Pretty much. First stone is coarser. Raise burr on one side then sharpen on other until bur then cut bur. Depending on coarseness you'll have a microscopically toothy edge. Each grit after makes it less toothy. Better for slicing cardboard but maybe not as good for cutting other things but is all a personal preference.
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This is the link to the manual I supply with the sharpening widget I make/sell. Some of it is specific to the widget, most of it is general freehand/sharpening tips:
http://www.washboardsharpening.com/user-guide.html
Stick to one fairly rough stone and one medium. Also might help to not think in terms of sharpening so much as shaping the metal into an edge.
The burr forms when you reach the edge - you've ground away steel to remove the dulled apex. The abrasive is not 100% efficient so some of the ground metal clings to the edge and can be removed with some super light passes on the opposite side, either at an elevated angle or at the same angle if your touch is light enough. The burr tells you you've gone far enough.
Learn on knives that you do not value! Working on a knife that has meaning to you will only add an unnecessary level of stress to a learning environment.
A freehand edge can equal or surpass (according to CATRA) the cutting efficiency of a machine/jig guided flat edge. That said, the guided systems produce a very good edge from what I've seen on the forum - I don't own any myself. IMHO, everyone is ultimately working toward a freehand excellency anyway, you may as well (barring a physical limitation) learn freehand from the get-go.
Have fun, learn on junk knives. When I started it took close to an hour to make a good edge, now it takes minutes. The coarse stone is your best friend for learning.
Martin