Freehand vs guided, which results in a better edge?

This is BF at its best. A lot of us had "ah ha" moments after a thread like this. Some good stuff here, a little overwhelming but the info is here.
I have nothing to add except a trite alliteration... "Practice, Patience, Peserverance " Don't get pissed and don't give up. If you get frustrated, walk away. An edge pro can irritate you just as easily as a Norton crystolon. You will have many epiphanies in your sharpening journey, and we are here to share your joy and pain. Welcome, we are a fun group.
Russ
 
Couple of pointers from a non-pro here on what really helped me with my learning.

1. Use the sharpie marker technique on the bevel to help you see what you are doing as you sharpen. Re-apply during sharpening as needed.

2. The marker is only useful if you look at the edge after a few passes. I find a very bright light (desk lamp) and a strong magnifier are essential. I bought a plastic document loupe from Office Depot for about $9. You want to angle the knife so that the light is reflecting off the edge bevel to really see what's up.

3. Change your technique based on what you see. You will have many "aha" moments as you dial in your approach and see the different results.

4. Don't be afraid of your coarse stones. They should be doing the heavy lifting. I can raise a burr with just a few passes on a coarse India stone. Don't use too much pressure, and check progress every few strokes to feel for the burr forming.

I was always afraid of removing too much material so would start out on stones that were too fine. So I would grind away and never fully apex the edge, and would move onto a finer stone too soon thinking that the secret to sharpness was further edge refinement. Shiny edges are not the same thing as sharp edges. You can of course have both, but sharp comes first.

Try different approaches. Full sweeps heel to tip, back and forth in sections, small circular motions, same hand but flip blade, or switch hands and always away. Edge leading, edge trailing, both directions. All are different techniques used by different people, and many people use different techniques depending on the knife, or on the same knife.

Watch the different videos and see how different people sharpen, and try things out for yourself. If you don't have old beater knives to practice on, get a few decent but inexpensive knives with fairly easy to sharpen steels - like Rough Rider slipjoints for about $10 each or a couple of Old Hickory carbon steel kitchen knives. I mention those brands because they are actually decent knives, just inexpensive. Dollar store knives might be tempting but some of them have poor steels and might not sharpen up well even with good techniques.

Oh... And if using oil stones, I suggest using oil with them. I prefer actual honing oil or cutting board oil over the pharmacy mineral oil, due to the lower viscosity. Unless the stones are dry (in which case they will drink up a lot of oil - other than Arkies which are solid rock) it doesn't take much and the stuff is fairly cheap.
 
HeavyHanded said:
This is the link to the manual I supply with the sharpening widget I make/sell. Some of it is specific to the widget, most of it is general freehand/sharpening tips:

http://www.washboardsharpening.com/user-guide.html

Stick to one fairly rough stone and one medium. Also might help to not think in terms of sharpening so much as shaping the metal into an edge.

The burr forms when you reach the edge - you've ground away steel to remove the dulled apex. The abrasive is not 100% efficient so some of the ground metal clings to the edge and can be removed with some super light passes on the opposite side, either at an elevated angle or at the same angle if your touch is light enough. The burr tells you you've gone far enough.

Learn on knives that you do not value! Working on a knife that has meaning to you will only add an unnecessary level of stress to a learning environment.

A freehand edge can equal or surpass (according to CATRA) the cutting efficiency of a machine/jig guided flat edge. That said, the guided systems produce a very good edge from what I've seen on the forum - I don't own any myself. IMHO, everyone is ultimately working toward a freehand excellency anyway, you may as well (barring a physical limitation) learn freehand from the get-go.

Have fun, learn on junk knives. When I started it took close to an hour to make a good edge, now it takes minutes. The coarse stone is your best friend for learning.

Martin
Click to expand...

Thanks for the link and thanks for the advice. I did pick up some cheap knives at thrift stores to practice on. I learned that after working on one of my Opinels. In time I hope be able to repair the terrible job I did to it from all the great advice I received and lots and lots of practice on the junkers. Again, thank you for the information.
 
mycough said:
This is BF at its best. A lot of us had "ah ha" moments after a thread like this. Some good stuff here, a little overwhelming but the info is here.
I have nothing to add except a trite alliteration... "Practice, Patience, Peserverance " Don't get pissed and don't give up. If you get frustrated, walk away. An edge pro can irritate you just as easily as a Norton crystolon. You will have many epiphanies in your sharpening journey, and we are here to share your joy and pain. Welcome, we are a fun group.
Russ
Click to expand...

Thank you and yes this is a great community. I learned so much more from the responses in this thread then the research I did online. I'm lookng forward to a productive weekend on the stone due to the lessons I received from you all. :)
 
jc57 said:
Couple of pointers from a non-pro here on what really helped me with my learning.

1. Use the sharpie marker technique on the bevel to help you see what you are doing as you sharpen. Re-apply during sharpening as needed.

2. The marker is only useful if you look at the edge after a few passes. I find a very bright light (desk lamp) and a strong magnifier are essential. I bought a plastic document loupe from Office Depot for about $9. You want to angle the knife so that the light is reflecting off the edge bevel to really see what's up.

3. Change your technique based on what you see. You will have many "aha" moments as you dial in your approach and see the different results.

4. Don't be afraid of your coarse stones. They should be doing the heavy lifting. I can raise a burr with just a few passes on a coarse India stone. Don't use too much pressure, and check progress every few strokes to feel for the burr forming.

I was always afraid of removing too much material so would start out on stones that were too fine. So I would grind away and never fully apex the edge, and would move onto a finer stone too soon thinking that the secret to sharpness was further edge refinement. Shiny edges are not the same thing as sharp edges. You can of course have both, but sharp comes first.

Try different approaches. Full sweeps heel to tip, back and forth in sections, small circular motions, same hand but flip blade, or switch hands and always away. Edge leading, edge trailing, both directions. All are different techniques used by different people, and many people use different techniques depending on the knife, or on the same knife.

Watch the different videos and see how different people sharpen, and try things out for yourself. If you don't have old beater knives to practice on, get a few decent but inexpensive knives with fairly easy to sharpen steels - like Rough Rider slipjoints for about $10 each or a couple of Old Hickory carbon steel kitchen knives. I mention those brands because they are actually decent knives, just inexpensive. Dollar store knives might be tempting but some of them have poor steels and might not sharpen up well even with good techniques.

Oh... And if using oil stones, I suggest using oil with them. I prefer actual honing oil or cutting board oil over the pharmacy mineral oil, due to the lower viscosity. Unless the stones are dry (in which case they will drink up a lot of oil - other than Arkies which are solid rock) it doesn't take much and the stuff is fairly cheap.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice.

If anyone is interested and has suggestion on my setup, please feel free to comment. I'm sure I went overboard at this stage of the learning, but I tend to do that sometimes. :D

About a month ago I bought an oil stone set from an online vendor that had a 4 stone setup with leather strop and honing oil. To that I added a larger container of honing oil, stone holder and a black Arkansas stone. The stones are course and fine india (I think from Norton) and soft, hard black Arkansas stones (mfg: Dan's Whetstones). Here's the kit I bought https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Ultimate-Oil-Stone-Kit-P320C128.aspx In addition I picked up a double-sided leather strop from a guy in Oregon.
 
Question. Most of my knives are of the drop point style. I find it difficult to sharpen from the belly to the tip. As I go about making the stroke I find I rotate the stroke to keep the edge going in a straight line and raising the handle to keep the blade in contact with the stone. I don't understand why I have to lift the handle to increase the angle to stay in contact. Should I not be able to stay the course as I do while grinding the flat portion of the blade edge?
 
Set the edge on a flat surface with backlighting. Observe the contact needed to keep the bevel on the flat. You have to elevate the handle because its relative to the plane behind the edge. Imagine the edge as a cross section. If you had your stone balanced at an angle and were holding the knife parallel to the table it would not appear that you were elevating the handle, just that you were shifting the blade to keep the same contact angle. Now imagine the stone flat on the table...

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For me, I struggled for years trying to freehand, and hacking up good blades. It wasn't until I decided to get a little serious about actually getting sharp, and started trying out different guided systems. Low and behold, my edges improved 1000%. But......it really wasn't the system that made the edges sharper. It just wasn't until I actually spent the money in them, that I actually went out seeking good information. They kind of forced me to want to learn the basics.

I can now even get a pretty good edge (touch up) with a simple pocket stone like the Spyderco Double Stuff. I still prefer my guided systems because I'm just better at getting perfectly "even" bevels, even though that is not what makes an edge sharp. That's done by consistent apex work as described by the pro's above.

My favorites for full profile is the KME for most knives, and Edge Pro for the big suckers. But once a knife has a well done bevel, it may only need a little stropping to restore an edge to shaving sharp. If it needs more, I turn to the Sharpmaker. In my eyes, guided systems don't help you get polished edges, they help you get even bevels. You can have the most polished out mirror edge that is nothing more than a paper weight. Or you could have an edge very uneven, and sharp as a scalpel. Not to mention that every guided system also has it's own quirks and learning curve, beyond the basics of sharpening.

So knowledge and practice is your best tool, no matter what medium you use. And there is more than enough knowledge shared here on the forum, if you are willing to read and apply. I'm not a pro, just a guy with ocd that likes sharp things with perfectly even bevels. But there are so many pro's here willing to share their time, trade, and skills with anyone willing to use it.

Welcome, and enjoy the ride.
 
Thanks byflying for sharing your experience. I'm glad I reached out and received the help that I did. This has been educational. Honestly I could have easily keep on spending money in an effort to find that right tool when along what I really needed to know was the basics.
 
I'm from the camp that rotates the blade rather than lifting the handle for belly to tip section.
This video explains it best. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JFhUXgYS0Os

Either method works, you only need to find out which is more comfortable. Perhaps for horizontal stone lifting handle is easier, but on sharpmaker V setup, the rotating makes more sense.

Welcome to the addiction of getting the sharpest possible.
Don't forget to check the stickies on top of this subforum. Lots of golden nuggets there, and sometimes it only clicks after you go down the journey and revisit them ;).
Read, practice & don't give up, are the keys :thumbup:
 
Can't remember if it was mentioned in this thread, but buy some $5-$15 knives to practice on, before you start cranking on ZT's, Benchmade's, Reeves, Spyderco, or any customs. Mystery steels can actually be quite challenging. Some almost soft as lead, while others are super hardened and almost brittle. They will give you some of the best practice possible.

One would think that a dead soft edge would be easier to sharpen, but just not hold an edge long. Sounds about right. Right? Sometimes I found just the opposite. If an edge is too soft, properly worked burrs are sometimes impossible to work out the same way you would on other nicer blades. And it doesn't help that the edge can fold or blunt just by testing it on paper.

You can see why some people become obsessed with their edges. Different steels, geometry, purpose, shape/design, etc. There is no one style fits all. I used to think that a high polish edge is just better at everything. And a toothy 300 grit level was just lazy. But I now know that there is a purpose for all types of finishes.







••••••••••••••••••••
People are Strange, When You're a Stranger....
 
Marty_E said:
bucketstove, great info. I'll look at it more in detail when I get hom from work.

This past weekend I attempted to sharpen an old pocket knife my dad had. I started out on an india course stone that I oiled up in preparation for sharpening. I then took a perm marker and marked the mfg bevel to make sure I was on mark with the angle. I then proceeded to hold the angle while applying very little pressure on the forward stroke and no pressure and the return stroke. I intially did about 20 strokes before doing the same on the oppsite side. After that I alternated sides after each forward stroke. I continued this for about 50 strokes. From there I progessed to a fine india stone doing 30 strokes alternately and did the same for each of the 3 Arkansas stones afterwards. I did check to feel if there was a burr, but felt nothing with each progression. I figured all I could do is hope for the best. After I was finished with the stones I stropped using just straight leather (no compound was used) for 30 passes on each side. When I checked my result on a piece of printer paper it just bent the paper over. Not even a nick.

I thought I was removing metal as I could see the oil had darkened significantly while cleaning the stones. It got darker with each finer grit stone I used. The entire process took about 40 minutes. That includes switching out stones and oiling and cleaning.
Click to expand...

You should be properly apexed with the coarse india stone before moving to finer grits and stropping. Which means grinding on until you are getting a burr on each side. Then you remove the burr and test the edge. A properly apexed edge off a coarse stone will slice clean ribbons off phone book or newsprint paper with no effort. If it cannot cut printer paper after the india stone then there's no point moving on to the fine Arkansas stones or stropping. With a strong light source behind you, check if you can see light glinting off the edge. This is a sure indicator that this part of the edge needs more work.
 
Marty_E said:
Are you saying if I want those crisp straight looking mirrored bevels I need to use a guided sharpener?
Click to expand...

almost right- you can polish, (mirror) either a convex plane, or a flat plane. But if you want to preserve the crisp line of a flat plane, a fixture is generally required.

there might be someone out there who can consistently mimic the mechanical, (flat plane), but I think that most people who sharpen freehand end up with a convex bevel no matter how hard they try to keep it perfectly flat.

personally, I think a convexed bevel cuts most media better and smoother. There are cases, (for example, where a secondary bevel of a collectible knife might get some corrosion on it) where it's good to keep things looking mint and for that a fixture is a really good idea.

If you don't feel a need to tie yourself to preset bevel angles, freehand sharpening and its requisite convexed plane provides more versatility in getting you the kind of edge you most like to use.

I think there are folks who really like the look of a mirror polished secondary bevel that contrasts with sandblasted/tumbled/satin finished blades. That shows more an aesthetic preference than a practical one in most cases, imo.
 
Today, Sunday, I practiced using the course India stone. After nearly 200 passes on the stone I did not get a burr. Frustrated I gave up. As I was packing away my sharpening kit I grabbed the strop and figured why not. I first stropped on the side I have with green compound about 20 strokes per side. Then did the same with the bare leather side. I then grabbed some line paper the kids used when they were in elementary school as it was the closest thing I had to telephone pages paper. The knife made clean cuts, but got a little grabby at the bend of the drop point. How is it that I was not able to create a burr yet the knife seems to have sharpened up nicely albeit a little more work is needed at the bend?
 
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Marty_E said:
Today, Sunday, I practiced using the course India stone. After nearly 200 passes on the stone I did not get a burr. Frustrated I gave up. As I was packing away my sharpening kit I grabbed the strop and figured why not. I first stropped on the side I have with green compound about 20 strokes per side. Then did the same with the bare leather side. I then grabbed some line paper the kids used when they were in elementary school as it was the closest thing I had to telephone pages paper. The knife made clean cuts, but got a little grabby at the bend of the drop point. How is it that I was not able to create a burr yet the knife seems to have sharpened up nicely albeit a little more work is needed at the bend?
Click to expand...
Hi,
Strops/leather/paper are compressible/soft/squishy, so they wrap around the edge and touch the apex.
You can get the same effect on the india stone by increasing your sharpening angle to where only the very apex is touching the stone (ex 20-25 degrees)
If a minute of scrubbing doesn't raise a burr on the coarse india (100-200 strokes), give it another minute.
If another minute doesn't do it, you're regrinding/reprofiling/lowering the angle, so increase your angle slightly enough (use marker trick).
If your stone is loaded/blackened you need to clean it; if it is clean but shiny/glassy its worn and needs to be reconditioned/re-cut....
 
bucketstove said:
Hi,
Strops/leather/paper are compressible/soft/squishy, so they wrap around the edge and touch the apex.
You can get the same effect on the india stone by increasing your sharpening angle to where only the very apex is touching the stone (ex 20-25 degrees)
If a minute of scrubbing doesn't raise a burr on the coarse india (100-200 strokes), give it another minute.
If another minute doesn't do it, you're regrinding/reprofiling/lowering the angle, so increase your angle slightly enough (use marker trick).
If your stone is loaded/blackened you need to clean it; if it is clean but shiny/glassy its worn and needs to be reconditioned/re-cut....
Click to expand...

I'll try increasing the angle slightly. The stones are all new and I keep a good pool of oil on the surface in hope of floating and not embedding the particles into the stone. The knife is an Opinel No. 8 stainless steel. The edge was hardly noticeable and the blade was not sharp. All it could do is push the paper, not cut.

Thanks so much for your help.
 
Marty_E said:
Today, Sunday, I practiced using the course India stone. After nearly 200 passes on the stone I did not get a burr. Frustrated I gave up. As I was packing away my sharpening kit I grabbed the strop and figured why not. I first stropped on the side I have with green compound about 20 strokes per side. Then did the same with the bare leather side. I then grabbed some line paper the kids used when they were in elementary school as it was the closest thing I had to telephone pages paper. The knife made clean cuts, but got a little grabby at the bend of the drop point. How is it that I was not able to create a burr yet the knife seems to have sharpened up nicely albeit a little more work is needed at the bend?
Click to expand...

India stones aren't known to cut that fast.

Also a scrubbing stroke works best but induces more techniques to keep the angle consistent.


Also
when it comes to freehand versus guided. Guided can produce superior edges.

However when come to speed freehand hands down.

Also your limited when using guided.

Freehand is more unrestricted and can be done anywhere on anything

Neither are a replacement for knowledge, techniques and practice.

The potential for sharpeness depends on the sharpener not the tools

It's the same in every hobby or discipline

Haha

Knowledge not tools
 
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HeavyHanded said:
This is the link to the manual I supply with the sharpening widget I make/sell. Some of it is specific to the widget, most of it is general freehand/sharpening tips:

http://www.washboardsharpening.com/user-guide.html

Stick to one fairly rough stone and one medium. Also might help to not think in terms of sharpening so much as shaping the metal into an edge.

The burr forms when you reach the edge - you've ground away steel to remove the dulled apex. The abrasive is not 100% efficient so some of the ground metal clings to the edge and can be removed with some super light passes on the opposite side, either at an elevated angle or at the same angle if your touch is light enough. The burr tells you you've gone far enough.

Learn on knives that you do not value! Working on a knife that has meaning to you will only add an unnecessary level of stress to a learning environment.

A freehand edge can equal or surpass (according to CATRA) the cutting efficiency of a machine/jig guided flat edge. That said, the guided systems produce a very good edge from what I've seen on the forum - I don't own any myself. IMHO, everyone is ultimately working toward a freehand excellency anyway, you may as well (barring a physical limitation) learn freehand from the get-go.

Have fun, learn on junk knives. When I started it took close to an hour to make a good edge, now it takes minutes. The coarse stone is your best friend for learning.

Martin
Click to expand...

Got a link where CATRA talks about this?
 
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