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Freon Tank Forge
- Thread starter Sirmasta
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jorasco312
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No.. just personal preference for me.
Well.. I just took a call from my daughter, gotta run to the airport and pick her up. If you have questions on applying the Satanite, post them. Plenty of knowledgable folks on the forum.
I do actually, when applying the satanite what did you use? A brush, paint scraper? Also, do you put the satanite on while the kaowool is in the chamber? I hate to take it back out. I put the kaowool in yesterday and should have used a resperator! Dumbest thing I've done in a while. I've been coughing all day and my chest is sore. If it gets much worse I may need to make a trip to the hospital.
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Apply the satanite in a skim coat for the first layer, let cure overnight, then apply in 1/8 to 3/16" layers with cures to desired thickness.
Please wear a respirator next time. Make the first coat thin so you can use a brush. The other layers can be mixed thicker and troweled on or applied by hand (wearing gloves).
Satanite is applied while the wool is in place in the forge.
Please wear a respirator next time. Make the first coat thin so you can use a brush. The other layers can be mixed thicker and troweled on or applied by hand (wearing gloves).
Satanite is applied while the wool is in place in the forge.
jorasco312
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Originally Posted by jorasco312
In post #7, 'thegeek' mentioned his plumbing. In the photo above of the forge on my roll around forge stand you can see the 20 pound bottle and my plumbing as follows from tank to burner: POL fitting > 4" hard (brass) line > ball valve (master/emergency cutoff valve) > 3 or 4" hard line > regulator > propane rated hose > 'T' fitting > Needle valves > 18" propane rate hose to each burner. That gives me plenty of stand off room between an accidental drop of hot work and the propane bottle.
My apologies.. I don't know how I missed your post! I usually open the thread with the "go to first unread post", today I didn't, scrolled through the thread and saw your post (#13).
The brass line and ball valve I obtained via my local Fastenal store. It wasn't in stock, but they are real good at getting stuff in a few days. Due to the economy, they have tightened up their inventory control system. It wasn't available at the local distribution center and had to come from their primary facility, took just a couple more days.
The regulator is a Fischer .. hmm 763C I think. It has been about 2 years. I believe it was obtained from Ellis and subsequently those assets were acquired by Wayne Suhbier of Hightemptools.com. Wayne's BF handle is 'insanity'.
The POL fitting, propane rated hoses, T fittings, needle valves and all the necessary brass connectors were obtained from Bigway Sales Company. Here is the link to their website: http://www.bigway.com/
Any odds and ends were sourced from HD/Lowe's/Ace. My build took a month or two so stuff was acquired in dribs and drabs. When the build was over... well, let's say the store credit for the unused 'stuff' was something I didn't tell the wife about!
In post #7, 'thegeek' mentioned his plumbing. In the photo above of the forge on my roll around forge stand you can see the 20 pound bottle and my plumbing as follows from tank to burner: POL fitting > 4" hard (brass) line > ball valve (master/emergency cutoff valve) > 3 or 4" hard line > regulator > propane rated hose > 'T' fitting > Needle valves > 18" propane rate hose to each burner. That gives me plenty of stand off room between an accidental drop of hot work and the propane bottle.
My apologies.. I don't know how I missed your post! I usually open the thread with the "go to first unread post", today I didn't, scrolled through the thread and saw your post (#13).
The brass line and ball valve I obtained via my local Fastenal store. It wasn't in stock, but they are real good at getting stuff in a few days. Due to the economy, they have tightened up their inventory control system. It wasn't available at the local distribution center and had to come from their primary facility, took just a couple more days.
The regulator is a Fischer .. hmm 763C I think. It has been about 2 years. I believe it was obtained from Ellis and subsequently those assets were acquired by Wayne Suhbier of Hightemptools.com. Wayne's BF handle is 'insanity'.
The POL fitting, propane rated hoses, T fittings, needle valves and all the necessary brass connectors were obtained from Bigway Sales Company. Here is the link to their website: http://www.bigway.com/
Any odds and ends were sourced from HD/Lowe's/Ace. My build took a month or two so stuff was acquired in dribs and drabs. When the build was over... well, let's say the store credit for the unused 'stuff' was something I didn't tell the wife about!
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jorasco312
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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Wayne is spot on in his Satanite application comments. yes, satanite is applied once the ceramic fiber is installed within the forge. I have seen the convex side of a ladle used. I have used a 1" & 2" chip brush. The limiting/constraining factor is how large your hands are and how small the forge chamber is. Just seems that no matter how careful you are, the back of your hand or the brush is hitting the other side of the chamber. The Devil made me say bad words! I also am a fan of QT fountain drinks (being from OK you have heard of these folks!) and have used the 22, 32 & 44 ounce lids for satanite application devices. Just cut some of the outer ring (the part the provides rigidity and affixes the lid to the cup) away and then you can shape the now soft part to spread the mortar.
Now, to be honest: Once the skim coat was on and hardened (I'll address that in a second), I have switched to just using my hand with either a latex or nitrile glove on the hand. Just so much easier. I kept a bucket of water handy, dip the gloved hand in the water, little shake to get rid of the excess, scoop up the mortar and smear away. The water/wet glove really made it a lot easier to get a good smooth surface. If you don't wet the glove/hand, the satanite will stick to it and that will make you say bad words!
The satanite needs to dry between coats. I also found that curing each coat helped a great deal in providing a hard surface to work on. Be sure to NOT PRESS HARD whe applying the mortar or the previous coat will crack (more bad words!). Remember, the fiber is not a solid mass, it is full of air. I 'dried' the satanite by either using a floor fan pointed at the open end of the forge or sticking a drop light with a 24W bulb in the chamber. I can assure you a 60W bulb in the forge with aluminum foil wrapped over the ends WILL melt the rubber on the drop light! But it dried the mortar!
Satanite is a 'heat set' refractory mortar which means it requires heat to cure. I simply used the torch I fabricated and gently played the flame into the chamber and over the satanite for a few minutes. You really want to ensure sufficient time has elapsed in the drying stage before doing this. then each successive coat could be a little thicker in viscosity and thickness of application. I think I am about 1/4" - 3/8" max thickness in my forge. After the final application has dried, then mount your torch and light 'er up... just a short burn for a few minutes. Wait a few minutes, repeat increasing temp and duration till you can run the burner up to 8 - 10 pounds for 5 - 10 minutes. Next applying your emissive product.
Emissive products, ITC-100 and Plistix are the two most commonly used in this craft. However, I have only used ITC-100. ITC-100 needs to have water added, directions are on the container. It is gritty, looks like mud. My jar is 5 years old and has dried out.. I just add water and keep on trucking. I made an application device from a 1" chip brush.. cut off the handle and used twisted clotheshanger wire fastened to the brush portion with a couple of screws. Bent the wire handle at 90 degrees to get it inside the forge chamber. I would start with 1/8 cup of ITC-100. Mix it with water per directions, let it set for 15 minutes or so. ITC-100 is intended to be applied in large industrial furnaces by being sprayed on.. so it has to have certain properties for that purpose.
This is my procedure: stir the mixture well; dip the brush in water, a little shake to rid the excess water; dip the brush in the ITC-100; tap - I repeat - TAP the brush bristles on the surface; repeat; when the area looks a little dry, repeat the process starting at dip the brush in water. You do NOT need a 1/4" nor 1/8" layer of ITC-100. A 1/16th is more than enough. Any thicker and you're wasting expensive matieral. NOTE: stir the ITC-100 frequently as it will settle out quickly. You WANT the grit deposited on the forge surface. Apply to the complete interior including your burner flare area, back side of any enclosures/doors, etc.. Fire up the forge and run it up to a good heat and cure the ITC-100.. should see a noticable difference in forge color. IF you run a 1" burner, do not turn it way up on pressure, you just may over heat the ceramic fiber.. you won't overheat the ITC-100!
Eventually forge scale and damage to the ITC-100 on the floor will diminish its effectiveness, simply apply some more. I stick my shop vac nozzle in the forge and suck out the debris first.
Remember: the satanite is for preventing the ceramic fiber from becoming airborne, providing a base for the application of your emissive product, either ITC-100 or Plistix. It is not bullet proof.. so be careful with the tongs and the stock when inserting or removing same from the forge.
My forge is for forging and not welding.. welding has other factors to take into consideration.
OK, just remembered something.. when applying the mortar, it will pack down, i.e., compress the ceramic fiber.. another reason to be gentle in the application phase. The freon tank forge/burner work best with about 250 cubic inches of volume, about 5.5" in diameter or so, and a 3/4" - 1" burner. See the Ron Reil pages on the ABANA website for burner info.
Hope this helps..
Now, to be honest: Once the skim coat was on and hardened (I'll address that in a second), I have switched to just using my hand with either a latex or nitrile glove on the hand. Just so much easier. I kept a bucket of water handy, dip the gloved hand in the water, little shake to get rid of the excess, scoop up the mortar and smear away. The water/wet glove really made it a lot easier to get a good smooth surface. If you don't wet the glove/hand, the satanite will stick to it and that will make you say bad words!
The satanite needs to dry between coats. I also found that curing each coat helped a great deal in providing a hard surface to work on. Be sure to NOT PRESS HARD whe applying the mortar or the previous coat will crack (more bad words!). Remember, the fiber is not a solid mass, it is full of air. I 'dried' the satanite by either using a floor fan pointed at the open end of the forge or sticking a drop light with a 24W bulb in the chamber. I can assure you a 60W bulb in the forge with aluminum foil wrapped over the ends WILL melt the rubber on the drop light! But it dried the mortar!
Satanite is a 'heat set' refractory mortar which means it requires heat to cure. I simply used the torch I fabricated and gently played the flame into the chamber and over the satanite for a few minutes. You really want to ensure sufficient time has elapsed in the drying stage before doing this. then each successive coat could be a little thicker in viscosity and thickness of application. I think I am about 1/4" - 3/8" max thickness in my forge. After the final application has dried, then mount your torch and light 'er up... just a short burn for a few minutes. Wait a few minutes, repeat increasing temp and duration till you can run the burner up to 8 - 10 pounds for 5 - 10 minutes. Next applying your emissive product.
Emissive products, ITC-100 and Plistix are the two most commonly used in this craft. However, I have only used ITC-100. ITC-100 needs to have water added, directions are on the container. It is gritty, looks like mud. My jar is 5 years old and has dried out.. I just add water and keep on trucking. I made an application device from a 1" chip brush.. cut off the handle and used twisted clotheshanger wire fastened to the brush portion with a couple of screws. Bent the wire handle at 90 degrees to get it inside the forge chamber. I would start with 1/8 cup of ITC-100. Mix it with water per directions, let it set for 15 minutes or so. ITC-100 is intended to be applied in large industrial furnaces by being sprayed on.. so it has to have certain properties for that purpose.
This is my procedure: stir the mixture well; dip the brush in water, a little shake to rid the excess water; dip the brush in the ITC-100; tap - I repeat - TAP the brush bristles on the surface; repeat; when the area looks a little dry, repeat the process starting at dip the brush in water. You do NOT need a 1/4" nor 1/8" layer of ITC-100. A 1/16th is more than enough. Any thicker and you're wasting expensive matieral. NOTE: stir the ITC-100 frequently as it will settle out quickly. You WANT the grit deposited on the forge surface. Apply to the complete interior including your burner flare area, back side of any enclosures/doors, etc.. Fire up the forge and run it up to a good heat and cure the ITC-100.. should see a noticable difference in forge color. IF you run a 1" burner, do not turn it way up on pressure, you just may over heat the ceramic fiber.. you won't overheat the ITC-100!
Eventually forge scale and damage to the ITC-100 on the floor will diminish its effectiveness, simply apply some more. I stick my shop vac nozzle in the forge and suck out the debris first.
Remember: the satanite is for preventing the ceramic fiber from becoming airborne, providing a base for the application of your emissive product, either ITC-100 or Plistix. It is not bullet proof.. so be careful with the tongs and the stock when inserting or removing same from the forge.
My forge is for forging and not welding.. welding has other factors to take into consideration.
OK, just remembered something.. when applying the mortar, it will pack down, i.e., compress the ceramic fiber.. another reason to be gentle in the application phase. The freon tank forge/burner work best with about 250 cubic inches of volume, about 5.5" in diameter or so, and a 3/4" - 1" burner. See the Ron Reil pages on the ABANA website for burner info.
Hope this helps..
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You might want to try using a foam paint brush for application of the satanite. Trim the foam corners to round out the edge a bit and trim the handle shorter for better clearance. Makes a smooth flexible "trowel" that can smear mud from end to end length wise along the chamber wall and/or be spun round laterally to the chamber. Dip in water as needed to thin or smooth mud. Be careful not to over apply coats too thick or will result in more shrinkage and cracking. Followup applications will fill/seal up cracks though.
If you don't use rigidizer throughout no worries, but you may want to use it around the burner collar's flared opening into the forge chamber. Prop funnel-like form in place to compress and create flare in the fiber layer. Pour some rigidizer down the collar to saturate flared fiber. Let dry before removing form. Rgidizer might also be helpful around the door openings at either end of the forge chamber. Fire cure prior to applying satanite.
If you don't use rigidizer throughout no worries, but you may want to use it around the burner collar's flared opening into the forge chamber. Prop funnel-like form in place to compress and create flare in the fiber layer. Pour some rigidizer down the collar to saturate flared fiber. Let dry before removing form. Rgidizer might also be helpful around the door openings at either end of the forge chamber. Fire cure prior to applying satanite.
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The burner inlet pipe should not get that hot, but the burner flair will. You can try moving the burner in a little further into the forge, and/or applying a bit of satanite around the inside of the forge end of the inlet tube.
Wayne Suhrbier
Wayne Suhrbier
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I use a T-Rex burner and it has a stainless steel flare. Maybe one thing I did not explain that could help is the kaowool board on the back of the forge was in place with no cutout hole yet. I was trying to dry the satanite so the only opening into the forge was from the front. I will have to resume tomorrow as it is pooring rain here in Oklahoma. I'll cut an opening to the back of the forge to see if this helps.
jorasco312
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If the burner tube/inlet pipe is getting red hot, the fuel/air mixture is burning in the burner tube. The flare provides the pressure drop which helps reduce the speed of the fuel/air mixture to the point where the flame will stand in the flare. But if the fuel/air mix is too slow, it will burn in the burner tube. The question is Why? Possible causes; choke closed too much - fuel/air mix too slow; insufficient gas pressure (where is your pressure gauge mounted? on the inlet side of your regulator or the outlet side?); not enough vent to the forge (rule of thumb is the exhaust vent/door/etc., should be a minimum of 7 times the burner nominal diameter of the burner tube), i.e., too much back pressure within the forge restricts the fuel/air mixture during its burn; too much burner for the size of the forge chamber - creating too much back pressure; flare and burner tube positioned too far into the forge chamber and are being heated by the forge atmosphere; or combinations of the above. By the way, since you’re a newbie at this, the auto ignition temp of propane is around 1,000 degrees Farenheit or so. Once the burner tube turns red, it will ignite the fuel/air mixture.
Some photos of your forge, with burner mounted, with a ruler for scale from a couple of perspectives and the interior along with your propane supply from tank to burner would help.
If you can’t post the photos to the thread, send them to me and I’ll resize and post them to the thread for you.
Hope this helps…
Some photos of your forge, with burner mounted, with a ruler for scale from a couple of perspectives and the interior along with your propane supply from tank to burner would help.
If you can’t post the photos to the thread, send them to me and I’ll resize and post them to the thread for you.
Hope this helps…
You have been a big help jarasco. Not saying the other helpful posts have not (dperk and insanity) but you're posts have been in great detail. Thank you! I'll send the pics to you and see what you can do as to post them to the thread. Do I need your email? Send me a private message if you can with your email.
jorasco312
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sorry I didn't reply yesterday.. I was out of the house most of the day and upon return had to prep for being out of town today. I haven't joined Facebook.. I am old school. I was thinking about your burner issue during a lull in yesterday's activities and realized I had not mentioned something else.
With your burner connected to the gas supply to be used for the forge, light it up with the burner removed from the forge. If it is functional, good flame pattern, fully adjustable via gas pressure and choke, then the problem is not within the burner, but lies within the forge. More than likely a back pressure issue.
If the burner does not function well, then the issue lies in your gas supply or the burner set up adjustment. First, burner setup: refer to the HybridBurner's instructions for setup. Second: Gas supply, the choke point is the gas orifice. Just a teeny little bit of debris will clog it up. You may have to start at the gas orifice and work backwords till the issue is resolved.
That is all I have time for at the moment, I'll send you my email address off line. I may not be able to check this thread till late this evening or tomorrow morning.
With your burner connected to the gas supply to be used for the forge, light it up with the burner removed from the forge. If it is functional, good flame pattern, fully adjustable via gas pressure and choke, then the problem is not within the burner, but lies within the forge. More than likely a back pressure issue.
If the burner does not function well, then the issue lies in your gas supply or the burner set up adjustment. First, burner setup: refer to the HybridBurner's instructions for setup. Second: Gas supply, the choke point is the gas orifice. Just a teeny little bit of debris will clog it up. You may have to start at the gas orifice and work backwords till the issue is resolved.
That is all I have time for at the moment, I'll send you my email address off line. I may not be able to check this thread till late this evening or tomorrow morning.
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Hey guys have a ? For ya. Would a propane tank work as well or is there a reason that they are not being used. The reason am asking is I have access to several large tanks (100lb) and can depressurize them
jorasco312
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20 pound propane tanks are frequently used as the carcass for a forge. I have not heard of a 100 pound tank being used but it is possible.
Warnings: You may know this, but I must say this. Cutting into a tank/bottle that contained a flammable gas/liquid has killed many people. There are threads, I believe within this website, that address all the safety precautions one must take.
Warnings: You may know this, but I must say this. Cutting into a tank/bottle that contained a flammable gas/liquid has killed many people. There are threads, I believe within this website, that address all the safety precautions one must take.
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Ok thanks for the info. Wasn't sure if the shells were not durable enough. Was going to go with coal fired forge but think this is a much more efficient way.
jorasco312
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Durability of the forge shell is an area where folks get carried away. The purpose of the shell is to hold the refractory, either ceramic fiber (soft) or brick/cast (hard) in the shape needed. Beyond that one may need a hard shell to mount doors/burners/tool rests, etc. I have heard 5 gallon buckets/pails used, sections of 12" chimney pipe, hardware cloth or chicken wire. Also have seen photos of pipe with 3/8" - 1/2" thick walls. It may have more to do with what is immediately available to the builder and/or his scrounging skills. A lot of folks use a freon tank. It is about the right size, i.e, not too small nor too large. Stuff you cut off of it can be re-purposed into a stand for it. The skin is thick enough (about 1/16") that one can weld feet/handle/tool support slides, etc., to the shell.
My forging mentor has a freon tank forge (one of several forges he has) that is approaching 10 years old... yes, it is beat up, been patched, at night the little blue wisps of flame easing out of cracks and crannies around various weld sites provide a certain ambiance and comfort between he and the old girl. He just can't mess with her though, as he knows her and her burner well and she keeps on heating steel just like he expects and wants.
If a freon tank shell is durable, a propane tank, which is just a tad thicker, will suffice also.
My forging mentor has a freon tank forge (one of several forges he has) that is approaching 10 years old... yes, it is beat up, been patched, at night the little blue wisps of flame easing out of cracks and crannies around various weld sites provide a certain ambiance and comfort between he and the old girl. He just can't mess with her though, as he knows her and her burner well and she keeps on heating steel just like he expects and wants.
If a freon tank shell is durable, a propane tank, which is just a tad thicker, will suffice also.
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Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith
ilmarinen - MODERATOR
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The shell only needs to be robust enough to hold the lining securely. A propane tank is fine. Remove the valve, fill the tank with water, drain and rinse a couple times, cut the tank with a metal cutting saber saw blade.
Just starting to assemble the parts for my freon tank forge, got my tank yesterday, aim to pick up what i can locally and not order where possible, though having a hard time with a lot of the parts. Has anyone compiled a full on detailed list of materials and cost. so i can start breaking this down into bitesized purchases. Tank=Free, donated by my service company for my AC (idealAir). Also, I have a forced air propane heater, one of the "jet engine" styles that is supposed to be anywhere from 70000-125000 BTU, is there anyway to borrow parts from that to use for this project? I would imagine at very least i could use the regulator hose assembly. Thanks i didn't want to in anyway hijack this thread as I have been reading along silently for some time. Any updates on the project?