Friend of mine found old Knifetest.com video/ THIS is the Joe X DESTRUCTION VIDEO Thread

[hugofeynman]

Hell's razor has a thickness of 0.21. I also used my badger attack and whiskey warden (0.22 and 0.145).
I hit a pipe that doesn’t move at all like Joe’s, the wall thickness is 5 mm, the metal is magnetic. but I don’t know how to identify possible cracks, my microscope did not show any cracks. There is no capillary flaw detection, nor ultrasound. It’s not even clear how the destruction begins, I think from the edge. but everything looks ok. By the way, does that mean you can’t make steel for a knife that won’t destroy? any ideas for steel s5? it seems to be hardened even more than 60
By the way, the new method of attaching the handles with epoxy glue and round spines works great.

“To choose a steel that absolutely could not break during chopping or hard use, I'd go with something like 4340, 4140, etc, but those would sacrifice edge holding. In a chopper, not too big a deal. In a pocket or kitchen knife, not likely. As a compromise, I'd go with 8670M, L6, 1050, 6150, 420J2, 5160, S7, S5, A8, 1060, etc. Basically, you need a steel with the absolute minimum of carbon to get the hardness you want after tempering, and a minimum of carbides. So, the carbon content needs to stay below, 0.8 for sure, and 0.6% or less ideally. Anything with silicon helps, like 9260 or S5. Nickel also helps, like L6, 8670M, 4340, etc. For really hard use, there is a silicon modified 4340, with both, that is also produced to aircraft grade standards, perhaps vacuum arc melted/remelted, or some other initial manufacturing process that stresses cleanliness. However, a crisp sharp edge at the end of a cardboard trial is not what I'm going for. These steels will suffer in edge holding unless you use them so hard that even something like A2 is failing by fracture instead of wear. Toughness is your top priority, not even tied with edge holding. At the end of the day, the knife absolutely has to remain in one piece, no matter what you use to baton it. I still think these could be made to hold an arm shaving edge through a fair amount of lumber. ”,me2 M me2

For the ten+ years since I am obsessed with toughness in sharp things, this post from M me2 in the Towards 0.1 micron forum (forum created by someone I really miss, Cliff Stamp) became my “holly Bible”, my guidance and it made me stop buying production knives and go to the custom world. So I make M me2 words my own: To survive JoeX test, the steel needs to have the lowest possible carbon, just the minimal quantity to be able to harden the knife to 54-56hrc. I would say 4140, 4340, 300M, Aermet 100, Premomet, k600 and a few others. Even then, the knife cannot be really thin, because toughness is dependent of the steel, the heat treatment and the geometry of the knife.

Regarding geometry/cross section and indestructibility, some years ago I’ve come across this article (regarding piolets) from blackdiamond: https://www.blackdiamondequipment.c...b-gear-doesnt-last-forever-part-i--ice-picks/

 

[Laurarium]

“To choose a steel that absolutely could not break during chopping or hard use, I'd go with something like 4340, 4140, etc, but those would sacrifice edge holding. In a chopper, not too big a deal. In a pocket or kitchen knife, not likely. As a compromise, I'd go with 8670M, L6, 1050, 6150, 420J2, 5160, S7, S5, A8, 1060, etc. Basically, you need a steel with the absolute minimum of carbon to get the hardness you want after tempering, and a minimum of carbides. So, the carbon content needs to stay below, 0.8 for sure, and 0.6% or less ideally. Anything with silicon helps, like 9260 or S5. Nickel also helps, like L6, 8670M, 4340, etc. For really hard use, there is a silicon modified 4340, with both, that is also produced to aircraft grade standards, perhaps vacuum arc melted/remelted, or some other initial manufacturing process that stresses cleanliness. However, a crisp sharp edge at the end of a cardboard trial is not what I'm going for. These steels will suffer in edge holding unless you use them so hard that even something like A2 is failing by fracture instead of wear. Toughness is your top priority, not even tied with edge holding. At the end of the day, the knife absolutely has to remain in one piece, no matter what you use to baton it. I still think these could be made to hold an arm shaving edge through a fair amount of lumber. ”,me2 M me2

For the ten+ years since I am obsessed with toughness in sharp things, this post from M me2 in the Towards 0.1 micron forum (forum created by someone I really miss, Cliff Stamp) became my “holly Bible”, my guidance and it made me stop buying production knives and go to the custom world. So I make M me2 words my own: To survive JoeX test, the steel needs to have the lowest possible carbon, just the minimal quantity to be able to harden the knife to 54-56hrc. I would say 4140, 4340, 300M, Aermet 100, Premomet, k600 and a few others. Even then, the knife cannot be really thin, because toughness is dependent of the steel, the heat treatment and the geometry of the knife.

Regarding geometry/cross section and indestructibility, some years ago I’ve come across this article (regarding piolets) from blackdiamond: https://www.blackdiamondequipment.c...b-gear-doesnt-last-forever-part-i--ice-picks/

Chopping edge retention is a combination of Toughness and Hardness, resulting in Edge Stability.
Toughness doesn't guarantee high impact edge retention
For instance, Aermet 100 is very strong and tough, but it is not hard enough, it can't even form a crisp edge without great effort, needless to say hold one.
There is a thread in which people have discussed it.

 

[Laurarium]

“To choose a steel that absolutely could not break during chopping or hard use, I'd go with something like 4340, 4140, etc, but those would sacrifice edge holding. In a chopper, not too big a deal. In a pocket or kitchen knife, not likely. As a compromise, I'd go with 8670M, L6, 1050, 6150, 420J2, 5160, S7, S5, A8, 1060, etc. Basically, you need a steel with the absolute minimum of carbon to get the hardness you want after tempering, and a minimum of carbides. So, the carbon content needs to stay below, 0.8 for sure, and 0.6% or less ideally. Anything with silicon helps, like 9260 or S5. Nickel also helps, like L6, 8670M, 4340, etc. For really hard use, there is a silicon modified 4340, with both, that is also produced to aircraft grade standards, perhaps vacuum arc melted/remelted, or some other initial manufacturing process that stresses cleanliness. However, a crisp sharp edge at the end of a cardboard trial is not what I'm going for. These steels will suffer in edge holding unless you use them so hard that even something like A2 is failing by fracture instead of wear. Toughness is your top priority, not even tied with edge holding. At the end of the day, the knife absolutely has to remain in one piece, no matter what you use to baton it. I still think these could be made to hold an arm shaving edge through a fair amount of lumber. ”,me2 M me2

For the ten+ years since I am obsessed with toughness in sharp things, this post from M me2 in the Towards 0.1 micron forum (forum created by someone I really miss, Cliff Stamp) became my “holly Bible”, my guidance and it made me stop buying production knives and go to the custom world. So I make M me2 words my own: To survive JoeX test, the steel needs to have the lowest possible carbon, just the minimal quantity to be able to harden the knife to 54-56hrc. I would say 4140, 4340, 300M, Aermet 100, Premomet, k600 and a few others. Even then, the knife cannot be really thin, because toughness is dependent of the steel, the heat treatment and the geometry of the knife.

Regarding geometry/cross section and indestructibility, some years ago I’ve come across this article (regarding piolets) from blackdiamond: https://www.blackdiamondequipment.c...b-gear-doesnt-last-forever-part-i--ice-picks/

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/the-steel-of-the-future-aermet-100-steel-infi-steel.1320697/

 

[hugofeynman]

Chopping edge retention is a combination of Toughness and Hardness, resulting in Edge Stability.
Toughness doesn't guarantee high impact edge retention
For instance, Aermet 100 is very strong and tough, but it is not hard enough, it can't even form a crisp edge without great effort, needless to say hold one.
There is a thread in which people have discussed it.

You’re right, they discussed it, but no one made a knife from it (it’s only available in rounds) and tested. It’s only guesses. For me, testing and data from reliable sources/people are what I want, not “educated guesses”.

 

[hugofeynman]

Chopping edge retention is a combination of Toughness and Hardness, resulting in Edge Stability.
Toughness doesn't guarantee high impact edge retention
For instance, Aermet 100 is very strong and tough, but it is not hard enough, it can't even form a crisp edge without great effort, needless to say hold one.
There is a thread in which people have discussed it.

“If a am doing a chopping knife for myself today, i would probably go for:



Flat product of Aermet alloy, 57HRC+; thus more or less ruling out any of those possible threads by material and process issues.

Use the thinnest cross section and the finest edge the steel can offer, since performance for me, is always cutting ability in the first place;

Look for the best balancing in the overall knife-design (pivot points, vibration knots) so i do not get tired fast whilst using it for Long periods of time,

Eliminate notches in the design, especially at stress-points (smooth surface, etc.)





Best Regards Roman”

Roman Landes, PHD Metallurgist. One of the very best in knife industry and one of a handful of persons I trust regarding knives and metallurgy.

 

[Laurarium]

You’re right, they discussed it, but no one made a knife from it (it’s only available in rounds) and tested. It’s only guesses. For me, testing and data from reliable sources/people are what I want, not “educated guesses”.

vasco max which is actually tested by jerry himself, behaved exactly like I said.
Vascomax is a type of “Ultra-high strength steel”,and it is designed in an approach known as “cobalt-nickle enhanced”the the sort Aermert is also a part of.
In the thread I quoted, Vasco Max C350 was mentioned and this is its composition

Symbol	Element	Nominal %
C	Carbon	0.03 max
Si	Silicon	0.10 max
Mn	Manganese	0.10 max
Ni	Nickel	18.50
Co	Cobalt	12.00
Mo	Molybdenum	4.80
Ti	Titanium	1.40
Al	Aluminum	0.10
Fe	Iron	Balance

Alloy	Carbon	Nickel	Cobalt	Chromium	Molybdenum	Iron
AerMet 100 Alloy[2]	0.23	11.1	13.4	3.0	1.2	remainder
AerMet 310 Alloy[4]	0.25	11	15	2.4	1.4	remainder
AerMet 340 Alloy[5]	0.33	12.00	15.60	2.25	1.85	remainder

Judging by there similarity, you know apple doesn’t fall far from the tree

 

[Laurarium]

vasco max which is actually tested by jerry himself, behaved exactly like I said.
Vascomax is a type of “Ultra-high strength steel”,and it is designed in an approach known as “cobalt-nickle enhanced”the the sort Aermert is also a part of.
In the thread I quoted, Vasco Max C350 was mentioned and this is its composition

Symbol	Element	Nominal %
C	Carbon	0.03 max
Si	Silicon	0.10 max
Mn	Manganese	0.10 max
Ni	Nickel	18.50
Co	Cobalt	12.00
Mo	Molybdenum	4.80
Ti	Titanium	1.40
Al	Aluminum	0.10
Fe	Iron	Balance

Alloy	Carbon	Nickel	Cobalt	Chromium	Molybdenum	Iron
AerMet 100 Alloy[2]	0.23	11.1	13.4	3.0	1.2	remainder
AerMet 310 Alloy[4]	0.25	11	15	2.4	1.4	remainder
AerMet 340 Alloy[5]	0.33	12.00	15.60	2.25	1.85	remainder

Judging by there similarity, you know apple doesn’t fall far from the tree

Plus Cobalt Molybdenum are very expensive, and the steel doesn’t perform a fraction of its price when made into a knife. Not good

 

[hugofeynman]

vasco max which is actually tested by jerry himself, behaved exactly like I said.
Vascomax is a type of “Ultra-high strength steel”,and it is designed in an approach known as “cobalt-nickle enhanced”the the sort Aermert is also a part of.
In the thread I quoted, Vasco Max C350 was mentioned and this is its composition

Symbol	Element	Nominal %
C	Carbon	0.03 max
Si	Silicon	0.10 max
Mn	Manganese	0.10 max
Ni	Nickel	18.50
Co	Cobalt	12.00
Mo	Molybdenum	4.80
Ti	Titanium	1.40
Al	Aluminum	0.10
Fe	Iron	Balance

Alloy	Carbon	Nickel	Cobalt	Chromium	Molybdenum	Iron
AerMet 100 Alloy[2]	0.23	11.1	13.4	3.0	1.2	remainder
AerMet 310 Alloy[4]	0.25	11	15	2.4	1.4	remainder
AerMet 340 Alloy[5]	0.33	12.00	15.60	2.25	1.85	remainder

Judging by there similarity, you know apple doesn’t fall far from the tree

And Ultrafort Maraging Steel, tested by myself, Samuel Lurquin, Achim Wirtz, JParanee and others behaves very well. Almost zero carbon, lots of Nickel, can be hardened to 60hrc and is a tough son of a gun. I missed Ultrafort in my extreme tough steels earlier. These one will also pass Joe tests. With proper geometry, that is.

 

[Laurarium]

And Ultrafort Maraging Steel, tested by myself, Samuel Lurquin, Achim Wirtz, JParanee and others behaves very well. Almost zero carbon, lots of Nickel, can be hardened to 60hrc and is a tough son of a gun. I missed Ultrafort in my extreme tough steels earlier. These one will also pass Joe tests. With proper geometry, that is.

If it does work, then it is fine, make more and sell them!

 

[hugofeynman]

If it does work, then it is fine, make more and sell them!

I’m no knifemaker, just a knife user/collector with an obsession for extreme toughness/unbreakability. Blame Noss and Busse FFBM for that. Before that test, I didn’t know that a knife could be used to chop, to batton and could survive that extreme treatment. I thought an axe would be needed when going outside. That knife and Noss started it all.

 

[Cobalt]

why is that？
By the way.
Someone once told me that S7 is tough ,but due to its rough grain , the edge stability is not very high at 58hrc.
This is his commentary on the Scrapper 6 Noss test, in which S7 had big edge tear outs.
I am not sure about that.

If you look at the scrapper 6 test, it proved to be one of the toughest knives Noss tested. The edge gave way, but the knife never failed the main battery of tests. It eventually broke but it took a lot of hammering Noss testing was much more abusive than joey.

I stated above that Joeys baby boy skrama, which he touted as tough and really likes, failed sooner than the ASH2 on the bend test and in the pole chop. Yet, the Skrama is a hero and the ASH2 was a zero, in spite of the ASH2 having a much thinner edge profile and performing better.

Yet, here we are talking about other steels that likely would not fare better than the ASH given the same blade design and geometry.

You want to build the toughest knife, steel is only part of it, the blade and edge geometry is the main part. The Ares did well because of it's low saber grind/convex edge, which makes for a very thick edge.
What we do know is that joey hates pussey

 

[Laurarium]

If you look at the scrapper 6 test, it proved to be one of the toughest knives Noss tested. The edge gave way, but the knife never failed the main battery of tests. It eventually broke but it took a lot of hammering Noss testing was much more abusive than joey.

I stated above that Joeys baby boy skrama, which he touted as tough and really likes, failed sooner than the ASH2 on the bend test and in the pole chop. Yet, the Skrama is a hero and the ASH2 was a zero, in spite of the ASH2 having a much thinner edge profile and performing better.

Yet, here we are talking about other steels that likely would not fare better than the ASH given the same blade design and geometry.

You want to build the toughest knife, steel is only part of it, the blade and edge geometry is the main part. The Ares did well because of it's low saber grind/convex edge, which makes for a very thick edge.
What we do know is that joey hates pussey

He harbours discrimination on American made high quality cutleries, and is kind of proud of *debunking those "over hyped/priced" knives.
He has lost(maybe never had) the dignity and respect of a true Non-biased tester by holding on to such illusions.

 

[hugofeynman]

If you look at the scrapper 6 test, it proved to be one of the toughest knives Noss tested. The edge gave way, but the knife never failed the main battery of tests. It eventually broke but it took a lot of hammering Noss testing was much more abusive than joey.

I stated above that Joeys baby boy skrama, which he touted as tough and really likes, failed sooner than the ASH2 on the bend test and in the pole chop. Yet, the Skrama is a hero and the ASH2 was a zero, in spite of the ASH2 having a much thinner edge profile and performing better.

Yet, here we are talking about other steels that likely would not fare better than the ASH given the same blade design and geometry.

You want to build the toughest knife, steel is only part of it, the blade and edge geometry is the main part. The Ares did well because of it's low saber grind/convex edge, which makes for a very thick edge.
What we do know is that joey hates pussey

Busse ASH-2 behaved very well in Joe test. It’s a great survival/camp knife. Busse should be proud.

 

[Vlad22]

good morning, guys! where can I see more Noss tests? that's why I only ever saw testing of basic 9...

 

[hugofeynman]

good morning, guys! where can I see more Noss tests? that's why I only ever saw testing of basic 9...

In Pressurant YouTube channel.

 

[Cobalt]

good morning, guys! where can I see more Noss tests? that's why I only ever saw testing of basic 9...

There is another thread on this forum with the link

 

[MacLaren1]

Think I'll send these bad boys over to be "tested"
.....got these little beauties for Christmas!
Love that they're FAT!
(The Battle Axe is my fave )....hmmm...Bossman....hint hint...

 

[Vlad22]

In Pressurant YouTube channel.

Cool! so many cool videos! Thank you! I decided to buy a microscope with a magnification of up to x1000. yesterday I read an article about STUDYING THE ACCUMULATION OF FATIGUE DAMAGE
IN STEEL SPECIMENS UNDER LOW CYCLE FATIGUE. I want to check that there are definitely no microcracks in the knives.

 

[Cobalt]

Cool! so many cool videos! Thank you! I decided to buy a microscope with a magnification of up to x1000. yesterday I read an article about STUDYING THE ACCUMULATION OF FATIGUE DAMAGE
IN STEEL SPECIMENS UNDER LOW CYCLE FATIGUE. I want to check that there are definitely no microcracks in the knives.

Would be interestingto look at this knife under magnification. Quite possibly the most abused Busse that hasn't broken. But I doubt there will be anything there.

Cliffs mistress

 

[Vlad22]

Would be interestingto look at this knife under magnification. Quite possibly the most abused Busse that hasn't broken. But I doubt there will be anything there.

Cliffs mistress

During the entire test, I examined each knife more than 10 times with my old microscope. but now I want more magnification. So far I haven't discovered anything.