frozen forging?

buckgen5

buckgen5

Joined
Sep 28, 2010
Messages
186
what is the significance of frozen forged blades vs other forging styles?
is it stronger? harder? i have aquired a couple of tidioute slipjoints and notice the label on the cardboard tube boasts that the blades are frozen forged and i am left wondering how the process is done, what it's advantages are, and what any drawbacks of this forge process may be. the more detail you provide the more i would appreciate an answer. i like to learn and understand new things. thank you!
 
buckgen5 said:
what is the significance of frozen forged blades vs other forging styles?
is it stronger? harder? i have aquired a couple of tidioute slipjoints and notice the label on the cardboard tube boasts that the blades are frozen forged and i am left wondering how the process is done, what it's advantages are, and what any drawbacks of this forge process may be. the more detail you provide the more i would appreciate an answer. i like to learn and understand new things. thank you!
Click to expand...

marketing hype
 
I've heard of "frozen" i.e. cryo, and "forged" of course- I've even heard of "rotary forged" which is supposed to improve the steel. Don't know about "frozen forged."

Like Butch, I'd suspect marketing hype. I don't know of cold forging being especially good for steels, frozen forging sounds like a good way to shatter a blade.
 
from another thread.....


knifeswapper said:
From the factory:

Hammer Tested: They test a sample of every batch coming out of heat treat by pulling across a bow while hitting with a hammer. This insures they are not brittle.

Frozen Forged: At heat treat once they come out of the furnace, they 1) get an oil quench, then 2) a preliminary temper, then 3) are cryogenically treated to improve temper, then 4) heat tempered again to finalize process.

Hopefully I didn't mess up what he said too bad.

Mike Latham
CollectorKnives.Net
Click to expand...

In short, they cryo treat and test their blades... the catch phrases are all marketing hype, IMO.

My blades are "High-Heat Impact Forged" and "Triple Kiln Tempered". Then they go through rigorous "Deciduous Fragmentation Testing" to ensure blade integrity.


Rick
 
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Interesting find, Rick. That just sounds like cryo, not any type of real forging. So it's hype, right?
 
I edited my post to reference the source, Salem.... yeah I feel it's marketing hype.



Rick
 
The only reference I can find to Frozen Forging is from a video game.

I suspect they are just using it to capitalize on the keywords and marketing hype.
 
I make my own beer and this reminds me of Coors's slogan "Cold Filtered."

That is the only way you filter beer! No way you'd want to heat it to filter it.
 
If it means the steel was forged and had cryogenic treatment after the regular heat treatment then it's not hype per se. True, it would be a non standard way of expressing that. Perhaps even a marketing shortcut, but it would represent real processes.

I guess it would be up to the consumer to either trust the producer/marketer as to the methods (presumably cryogenic processes) and their effectiveness with the particular steel, and/or to understand (or research) it themselves.

What steel is it by the way?

Here are a few links that might be informative...

 
calling frozen= cryo is like also the same as a house freezer is the same as LN2

and cold forging is not even close to at freezing temps
 
If it's forged, HT'ed then cryoed, the maker should just say so and not fog the issue with made-up gobbledy-gook. Wasn't it PT Barnum who charged people money to see the egress?

Rick Marchand said:
My blades are "High-Heat Impact Forged" and "Triple Kiln Tempered". Then they go through rigorous "Deciduous Fragmentation Testing" to ensure blade integrity.
Click to expand...

You need to copyright/trademark those phrases, including the colors they're printed in ;)
 
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In states of matter any solid is considered frozen, so I guess all the blades I forge are frozen forged as well, since I gave up melting blades long ago.
Del
 
Phil Dwyer said:
If it means the steel was forged and had cryogenic treatment after the regular heat treatment then it's not hype per se..........
Click to expand...

Phil, I totally disagree.
Playing with words to say something that is not so is hype, and deliberately misleading. Actually, it is hype at best...and lying at worst. You are a teacher, and know that you can't place an adverb and a verb together and imply something that is not true....even if both words apply in different context. Once together they make a statement, which is either true of false. The meaning of "per se" is in itself. If "Frozen Forged" is used to mislead with a false statement, then it is "in itself" hype, not fact. So I would say that it is de facto hype.

EXAMPLE:
If I marked my tab at a restaurant, "Paid in full", and stuck a dollar in the folder, they would call the cops if I tried to leave. Telling the Judge, " But I was full, and I paid a dollar,.....so the bill was paid in full, wouldn't get me out jail.
 
With not being specific to this incident, I agree Stacy. Some folks think I am down on simple methods or unorthodox approaches to making knives, this is false, but I do despise hype. Use any method you want just be honest about what you do, that is not too much to ask.

I can’t say why but hype just irritates the h@#% out of me! I have never liked it in any area of life, to the point that I can’t refrain from taking it on and exposing it for the intelligence insulting dishonesty that it is. If you can’t sell your product on its real virtues, without setting it on a pedestal of B.S., then move onto to something that you can while still looking in the mirror.

Rick has an excellent point and just think of all the cool little labels I could make up about my processes! I have considered posting some before just to illustrate the absurdity of others with parody, but considering how quick the public is to gobble it up I couldn’t bring myself to do it. In fact that works both ways, while I am embarrassed and angered by makers who take peoples money with hype, I also realize that they are encourage by a public that responds so well to hype that they almost deserve to have their money taken.

I did a talk at Ashokan once with a title that exactly expresses my feelings on the topic “Hype! Why can’t we just make good knives?”

As for “freeze forging”, it sounds to me like in the absence of offering anything unique somebody just came up with some new labels to sell some of the ordinary things. I’ll let you decide what to call that strategy.
 
it's 1095 carbon steel. the knife i got is a frontier bone sunfish manufactured by great eastern cutlery under the name tidioute. i have heard nothing but good things about their company and they seem quite reputable. they are "hand crafted with true allegheny mountain tradition" as the label reads.
 
buckgen5 said:
... i have heard nothing but good things about their company and they seem quite reputable. they are "hand crafted with true allegheny mountain tradition" as the label reads.
Click to expand...

No doubt they are good knives. We are just poking fun at the marketing stragedy. My guess is that some new hotshot in publications/promotions sat down with the manufacturing crew (5mins, tops) and asked what it is they do... then flew with it. I'm also fairly certain that the guys on the shop floor are probably roll their eyes at the catch phrases, too.
 
Phil Dwyer said:
If it means the steel was forged and had cryogenic treatment after the regular heat treatment then it's not hype per se.
Click to expand...
bladsmth said:
Phil, I totally disagree.
Playing with words to say something that is not so is hype, and deliberately misleading. Actually, it is hype at best...and lying at worst.
Click to expand...

I agree with you Stacy. Deceit is deceit. I never meant to say it wasn't, nor that I support it by minimizing it. If it was a phrase used to deceive the buyer with BS then shame on them, but...

What I was trying to say was, what if it was used as an attempt to represent or summarize a series of true and appropriate processes? Such as...

  • A blade of high carbon steel (1095) forged at the proper forging temp
  • Then heat treated properly (including quenching and tempering)
  • Then Cyro'd
Would it then be lying or hype?

We say things like Heat Treat to summarize a long involved process of many steps. Although someone could use Heat Treat with deceit in mind, it does not mean others are lying when they use the phrase. I realize this is not a parallel example, as the other is an "invented" phrase with no context to back it up.

Since it is not an industry standard phrase, it is certainly suspect and does create more confusion than clarity. Unless the company releases the actual facts about their processes it is all supposition. As such it is likely the uninformed and the gullible will suppose the best, the knowledgeable and the skeptics the worst.

All the best, Phil
 
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