frustration with sharpmaker, paper cutting vs. shaving

C

Chuen

Joined
Aug 26, 2002
Messages
7
This is my first post here. After reading many post on sharpening, I got myself a spyderco sharpmaker. However, after weeks of trying, I still can't get satisfacoty result. I tried to sharpen the plain edge of my ATS-55 Spyderco pro-grip and some SAK using the sharpmaker. I can get all blades sharp enough to shave arm hair. But all do poorly in push-cutting paper. All blades shave hair better then a brand new SAK after sharpening. However, the brand new SAK beat them in push cutting paper. Moreover, my brand new endura beat then all in every test.

I have tried the burr method and the method mention in the manual, the magic marker trick, grounding the blade to 30degree bevel(took me hours). But I can't get anything nearly as sharp as my new endura. All push cut poorly. I'm really frustrated now. What could I have done wrong? Thanks.
 
Thanks. But I can't afford an edgepro at this moment. Since many people here seems to be getting good result with the sharpmaker, I would like to find out what am I doing wrong. Is it possible to get a blade as sharp as a new spyderco using the sharpmaker alone? Am I asking too much from the sharpmaker?
 
Chuen-- It's kinda hard to figure out sharpening problems over the internet sometimes. Are you using the brown stones to raise a burr all along the edge on both sides before you switch to the white stones? Are you completely removing the burr during the final stages of sharpening? One trick that might help is to angle the blade a little bit away from the stones (towards the center of the "V" formed by the sticks on your last few passes using very gentle pressure.
--Josh
 
Thanks. I did that when I sharpen my SAK. In fact, I did it several time (raise a burr on the left, then right, then left ....) on the brown stone to make sure I'm really raising a burr. However I don't really know whether I remove the burr completely with the white stone. All I know is that I can't feel a burr using my hand. I did try to angle away the blade in the final storke but it seems to make the blade duller.

Moreoever what's the difference between push cutting ability and shaving ability? Is there any reason that my sharpened blade do ok on shaving but poorly in push cutting?
 
Originally posted by Chuen
I did try to angle away the blade in the final storke but it seems to make the blade duller.
Click to expand...

Try less pressure and a smaller angle. Also, in general, you should use less pressure as you progress from the brown stones to the white until you are using pretty much just the weight of the blade for the last few strokes. One other thing: have you cleaned your stones recently? If they are covered with metal, they won't do a very good job of sharpening your blade. Try a green scrubby kitchen pad and some comet if they need cleaning. Hopefully others will have some more suggestions for you.
--Josh
 
Sounds like you are either varying the angle between strokes, using too much force (rolling the edge) or both.

Lighten up, relax and it should work better.

I put my spyderco stones on the back and use it like a flat stone.

Or grab on ceramic rod and hold the knife still and sharpen it free hand. This works pretty well for me.
 
Does your new Endura have a VG-10 alloy blade? That would explain a lot. VG-10 gets sharper than ATS-55 or the alloy used in SAKs. The SAK is good at cutting paper because the blade is thin. A thicker blade will get wedged in the cut in the paper and tend to push it over.

Your trouble could also relate to remaining burr. The white stones are not good at removing a burr and the method of honing one side until you get a burr insures that you always have one to remove.

Try the following being sure to always alternate strokes left-right-left-right. To remove a burr go back to the brown stones and the 20 degree rod position. Lightly hone edge-first on alternate sides with the blade always tilted a bit more towards the center rather than vertical. You want to be honing at about 40 degrees rather than 20 degrees. Do this for about 5 strokes per side (alternating sides). Now repeat this process with the hones in the 15 degree slots but with the blade in the normal vertical position to get back to 15 degrees. Only do this for 5 to 10 strokes per side or you will start to get a burr again. Now do 5 strokes per side (alternating sides) at 15 degrees with the white stones. Then switch to the 20 degree position and do 5 strokes per side very lightly(remember all of these steps are alternating sides).

If this doesn't work for you try stropping the blade on a leather belt. If that doesn't work, repeat after me: "I will never buy ATS-55 again".
 
I completely agree with Jeff. It sounds like you've got a small bur left, bent over on one side of the blade.
 
I worked on a police model in ats-55 that I could not get sharpened to satisfaction after being dulled.

I gave up after an hour, and handed it back to the guy, no charge.

I can shapen 10 knives in ats-34, vg-10, s30v, d-2, a-2, you name it, basically all the steels used in that time normally.

I have held off buying what I wanted at times due to the knife being offered in the ats-55 steel.

I've heard others here who have no such dificulties. It's a mistery to me as well.

Brownie
 
Originally posted by Jeff Clark
The SAK is good at cutting paper because the blade is thin. A thicker blade will get wedged in the cut in the paper and tend to push it over.
Click to expand...
This is a myth.

Need proof?

Paper Cutting with a 5/16" thick, 2" wide blade


Originally posted by Buzzbait
...sounds like you've got a small burr left, bent over on one side of the blade.
Click to expand...

That is exactly what I was going to say.


Try this test:

Hold your blade perpendicular to your thumbnail and while lightly pressing down, scrape the blade across your nail. Try this both directions. If it scrapes part of your fingernail on both sides, it's evenly sharpened. If it scrapes only one side, then you have a burr on one side only. And if it doesn't scrape either direction, then you need to spend more time at the stones...;)

Here's another video:

Scrape Test


As a final check, run your fingernail down the edge very gently. It should feel as smooth as glass. If it doesn't, then you need to strop it until it does. That's really the only way to get the paper to cut smoothly. Strop it to death. Put in a good movie and strop till you drop...:rolleyes:


Give it a shot. You've got some good advice here so far from some very knowledgeable folks.

Dan
 
Try stropping after you finish with the white stones. A little bit of white rouge or green strop paste works wonders even if you just strop on regular leather. The ink and paper on newspapers acts as a super fine abrasive as well and polishes edges up a bit, so if you don't have anything to strop with, newspapers work too. Put your newspaper on a desk and strop away. Careful not to overdo or you just roll the edges.
 
Chuen,

Do you mean pull cutting and not push cutting?

Shaving hair is done by push cutting while cutting paper is like a combination of push and pull, something to that effect.
 
Thanks, you guys are really helpful. I have try Jeff's method on my SAK. I now got a pretty sharp edge on the 40 degree ground edge. However, it does not works on the 30 degree ground edge(I ground the small blade to 30 degree). I seems to get a burr on either side no matter what I do, and it's even duller then the 40 degree ground edge. It drags more in one direction of the other. Is it really a burr or do I got a rolled edge? Is 30 degree angel too steep for SAK steel?

Furthermore, I seems to have a problem sharpening the curve part the my pro-grip near the tip. I know I have to rotation the blade as the blade curve upwards. But I can't seems to get the rotation consistant from stroke to stroke. I'm getting sort of a convex edge. Is there any trick to keep the rotation consistant? Will a rod guide system such as lansky better in sharpening the curve part of the blade? Thanks.
 
BTW, by push cutting I mean I puch into the paper and drag the blade without any slicing motion. Thanks.
 
One problem is that there are different kinds of sharpness. For most utility purposes, you may think you want a narrow angle, but what you really need is a toothy edge, with some bite -- microserrations. What you are trying to do now is to produce an edge that's good for show, but won't hold up in the long run -- it will require constant maintenance because it's too fine.

This is OK if it's what you need. Hey, some people like bald arms! :) I don't sharpen for really fine edges, but it seems to me that shaving arm hair needs a slight amount of bite, to grab the hair instead of just pushing it down and riding over it. But pushing through paper? Maybe you need a polished edge for that. The Sharpmaker will bring you close, but you have to strop for the final polish.
 
Thanks. I now ground the small blade back to 40 degree and it is now as sharp as the large blade. I suppose I'm satisfy with this for the SAK.

Esav, do you mean that it's ok to get a convex edge when I sharpen the pro-grip? I think this is the result from my inability to keep the angle consistant from stroke to storke.

My pro-grip is slight sharper then a brand nem SAK but not as sharp as when it was new. Should I stop here or tried to get it sharper? How difficult is it to get a blade as sharp as a new spyderco using the sharpmaker? I don't have the gear to do stroping.
 
Thanks for the link. It's interesting that I'm getting a convex grid by accdient. For those who use the sharpmaker, do you usually get a convex grid on the curve part of the blade?

BTW, looking at the edge under a magnifying glass, it is clear that the one on a new SAK is more polished then the one sharpened on the sharpmaker. I suppose this is why it cut through paper very well but won't shave properly.
 
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