Full tang VS narrow tang?

Good call, Bill. I think it would be a valuable test. No, we normally aren't going to use our knives to cut trees down or pry open man holes BUT, if in a survival situation something like that needs to be done, it would be interesting to see which tang would be the strongest and hold up to the punishment.

I had a feeling this would start some contraversy but, I didn't intent it to. I think a well constructed narrow tang is plenty strong. As is a full tang. But, under extreme conditions, I'd like to know which is stronger.
A lot of good discussion. Keep your thoughts coming.
The friend that argues this with me has tested this with one full tang and one narrow tang and the blade snapped on the narrow tang with no harm to the handle and with the full tang the scale on one side popped up 1/4" before the blade snapped. This doesn't really prove anything to me though.
 
I've handled a good number of ancient weapons because of my interest and my occupation as an archaeologist. There are too many ways to make a weapon, you cannot limit them as narrow tang vs. full tang. To compare a medieval sword and a poorly made modern kitchenware is absurd even that knife has a full tang. A sword maker decides the tang construction not by looking to the strength but they also consider the balance and weight. Also do we have to evaluate the knives constructed with pommel and without, at the same group?. With a pommel and a good transition between ricasso and tang a hidden (narrow) tang knife can be as strong as a full tang but a knife having a stick tang and without a pin will have a handle as strong as epoxy or the handle material.
In my opinion, the knives poorly designed for the job or just poorly made knives will fail. Other than that any type of handle is OK for me if the knife used for the purpose it is made.
 
Wayne Goddard states that he prefers hidden tang construction over full tang. He said he has subjected a hidden tang knife with a micarta handle and threaded buttcap to the "most severe test of tang strength that I have been able to devise" namely driving it point first through a 2x4 with a 4lb. hammer. He further states, "The properly constructed narrow tang will withstand this type of abuse. I'd never try it with a slab-handled full tang knife." If you read the "$50 Knife Shop" he has a lot of other good thoughts about tang strength as well.
I'm not saying that one should swallow the opinions of even as experienced a knifemaker as Wayne Goddard hook, line, and sinker, but with his reputation for testing his knives and thoughtfulness in his attention to performance, I'd probably rate his opinion over a lot of random people's who probably haven't made knives for over forty years and rigorously tested them along the way.
I'm also having difficulty understanding why forging down the tang being stronger than grinding down the tang is a fallacy. Isn't it a generally accepted principle of industry that drop-forging or pressing an object produces a stronger product than casting? My impression from what I have read and what instructors have covered (briefly) in welding-class metallurgy is that when the grain flows into and around the corners of a shape, the corners are less likely to function as stress risers than if the grain was simply cut through to achieve the same shape.
Perhaps I should find out for myself though, through testing.
*After re-reading that earlier post, I will say that the impression was perhaps given that unless a hidden tang is forged, it is weak. I wouldn't necessarily say THAT is true...*
 
I figured the ABS, MS Might help in the discussion Bill..thats all

when it all boils down, all the little floating photons here ammount to opinion anyway. Hell, even pics get dismissed as proof;)

This is one of those questions that has a huge ammount of variables, and I can see a bunch on "but" and "what if's" coming up. Hec, we've already retouched the "forged stronger than non forged" subject.
 
While we're at it, who wants to bring up 9mm vs .45... carbon vs. stainless... :D

DustinHall said:
The friend that argues this with me has tested this with one full tang and one narrow tang... This doesn't really prove anything to me though.
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You're right, and I think that's what Bill is getting at. Unless those two knives were identical in every other way (design, steel, HT etc.) it means doodly.

vorpalknives said:
I'm also having difficulty understanding why forging down the tang being stronger than grinding down the tang is a fallacy. Isn't it a generally accepted principle of industry that drop-forging or pressing an object produces a stronger product than casting?
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Apples, oranges, and limes. Casting has nothing to do with any of this.

I've questioned the Goddard position quoted above since I first read the book. It seems vague to me. Since he's talking about pounding a knife through an object, I suspect he means the hidden-tang, threaded-nut knife is less likely to have the handle pop off, and this seems reasonable. Unless I forgot (it's been a while) he doesn't address the actual tang breaking. As always, I could be wrong.

The guys who've been doing this for years, even decades, have proven that durable knives can be made in either style. There's no magic or secret to it anymore, and this is good.
 
Dang, we just got to beams in deformable bodies, so I might be able to weigh in on the whole bending issue in a week or 2. Unfortunately I don't know for certain right now, although I'd guess that a solid round object wouldn't be very difficult to bend as opposed to a more rectangular object.
 
Just for the sake of discussion I think it's a fair enough question... But in the big scheme of things I'll second Acridsaint's answer about standing on it.

I read all sorts of stuff on the forums about how a stick tang isn't strong, and how sharp/crisp plunge cuts are a huge stress riser that will cause a knife to snap in two, you have to grind to at least 400X before you heat-treat... blah blah blah ;) :)

I like to use my Js performance knife (or about 100 others I've tested to destruction) as an example. It was a stick tang, with super sharp plunge cuts, and only ground to 60X before heat-treated. It (and all the others) did all that testing and not ONE of them broke at the tang or plunge cuts. ;)

Yet according to a lot of posts they should have spontaneously blew apart right?!?!? :)

In my opinion, if a knife is ground so thick and clunky that stick vs. full tang is an issue... it needs a thinner edge. :D
 
SShepherd said:
I figured the ABS, MS Might help in the discussion Bill..thats all
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So asking if anyone has tested their theories is not helping? I have done a few tests for my self on this subject so I have my own theories that I am going to pretty much keep to myself other than to ask another question. does anyone here think they can exert enough pressure using their hands to cause either handle to fail? (other than maybee Nick Beefcake)
 
Honestly, I don't believe I've ever even seen a broken tang. In my entire life. I've seen plenty of broken blades, but man, I'd be surprised if a normal human being could even manage to break a tang on a well-made knife.
 
vorpalknives said:
I'm also having difficulty understanding why forging down the tang being stronger than grinding down the tang is a fallacy. Isn't it a generally accepted principle of industry that drop-forging or pressing an object produces a stronger product than casting? My impression from what I have read and what instructors have covered (briefly) in welding-class metallurgy is that when the grain flows into and around the corners of a shape, the corners are less likely to function as stress risers than if the grain was simply cut through to achieve the same shape.
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The steel is starting as a forging, what we're doing by hand isn't adding to that. The reduction of stress risers can be done by simply improving the finish of the part and removing corners. The concaves being stronger than straight angles bit applies here as well.

Heat treatment determines the grain structure of the steel, the only thing we can do above and beyond this is in surface treatment and design. I've yet to see something intrinsic in the forging process that enhances these over a well designed and finished stock removal part.

Something to consider, since someone else brought up guns - match grade components for race pistols are often machined down from solid stock. One of the top names in pistol barrels (perhaps there's another argument) is Bar-Sto, 3 guesses where the name comes from :D. There's at least one industry out there that thinks barstock is forged enough from the start.
 
SSheperd, what I mean is that if you ever read a book on the subject it will often have a diagram of grain pattern in a steel object, side by side examples of the effects on grain pattern of forging, casting, and machining to the same outside dimensions, with the point being that forging is stronger than either of the other methods due to uninterrupted grain flow.

"Properly developed grain flow in forgings closely follows the outline of the component. In contrast, bar stock and plate have unidirectional grain flow; any changes in contour will cut flow lines, exposing grain ends, and render the material more liable to fatigue and more sensitive to stress corrosion."

This is taken from the website at this url, which is an interesting site by the way.
http://www.forging.org/facts/wwhy3.htm

Although for sure, this is all extremely picky-a$$ stuff and admittedly probably not an issue the great majority of the time...
 
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Now that I think about it, this sort of discussion begins to remind me of my Dad growing up... he would get in these doctrinal, dogmatic debates about fine points with other Christians, and get needlessly frustrated over it. It would wear me out to listen to. The very thing that was supposed to bring them together drove them apart. Geez, my bad if I'm being a chip off the old block that way.
 
I can tell you one thing, I have never had a hidden/stick tang bend or break and I have used knives that incorporate them to do some pretty heavy chores.
 
both of my stick tangs and full tangs passed the journey smith test. I prefer a stick tang, better balance overall. I have heard from just about every vendor, survivalist, gun instructor, etc.. that full tang or the knife will break. I have personally never seen it. I dont know how it all got started in the first place. Honestly if it was good enough for real warriors back in the day who fought with knives and swords, why wouldn't it be good enough now.
 
Some good discussion going on here... thanks for all of your input. From what I understand, a forged knife is no stronger than a stock removal knife because once you heat treat it, the grain structure is changed anyway and will contour to the pattern of the knife no matter how it was shaped. But that's a whole other topic. So back to the full tang vs. narrow tang... several of us have pointed out that both tangs (being well made) would be very difficult if not impossible to break by an average mans hand. I think that under any normal knife using circumstances, both will hold up just fine and I'm sure all of you can agree with that. But if that's where we draw the line then there isn't much point to this discussion, is there? What I'm wondering is under extreme forces, which tang will actually prove to be superior? Just out of curiosity and because I want to prove me friend wrong. :) Anyway, good discussion guys.
 
useing a knife as a prybar is a bit retarded anyway..IMO

abuse any knife, and theres no telling where it's going to break.
 
vorpalknives said:
SSheperd, what I mean is that if you ever read a book on the subject it will often have a diagram of grain pattern in a steel object, side by side examples of the effects on grain pattern of forging, casting, and machining to the same outside dimensions, with the point being that forging is stronger than either of the other methods due to uninterrupted grain flow.

"Properly developed grain flow in forgings closely follows the outline of the component. In contrast, bar stock and plate have unidirectional grain flow; any changes in contour will cut flow lines, exposing grain ends, and render the material more liable to fatigue and more sensitive to stress corrosion."

This is taken from the website at this url, which is an interesting site by the way.
http://www.forging.org/facts/wwhy3.htm

Although for sure, this is all extremely picky-a$$ stuff and admittedly probably not an issue the great majority of the time...
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I used to run a 500ton forging press..over a decade ago now:( (damn time flew)
I know a bit about grain "flow", but I've yet to see any proof that it will make
any part of a knife stronger than any other properly made knife.
 
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