Fun, Freedom and Responsibilty

Charlie Mike said:
Very challenging. It took a while to teach my wife proper mindset. She can kill a human with little regret now. We are both buying IBA vests with SAPI plates. We aren't having kids until the second revolutionary war is over.
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For a lot of people, it is easier to kill than it is to live.

To live, well, and to be good to oneself and others, takes a lot. It also gives much more in return, period!

Teaching yourself how to live with out dependency on narcotics and alcohol would be of far greater value than teaching your wife to kill.

I do not mean this as a criticism, simply an observation.
 
growing up, maturing, doing things differently. Happens to us all.


I never understand the minimalist approach though. I carry more than I need, don't use a lot of it, but am comforted by the fact that it's there.
 
Interesting how people get to the same place taking slightly different paths to get there.

I came to some of those similar thoughts because of my kids...just not because they were waiting on me at home....but because I had them with me. One day when Sarah was 4 we went for a hike to get away from the verbal abuse of my now ex-wife. The only thing I took was a two quart canteen full of water thrown over my shoulder, two cereal bars in a shirt pocket, a bic lighter, a mag bar, and my knife. We wondered around and looked at this and that and talked for hours. We found a spot to just sit around..I sat she ran around looking at everything. My first thought was: "man this is awesome, it's so peaceful and she has so much fun, we have got to do this more often!" The came another thought..."Oh shit, here I am...at least four miles into the woods, I have a small child, no first aid kit, no extra food, no shelter materials (and no idea what the weather was supposed to do), no light source other than the bic, no way to call for help, and other than we are "in the woods somewhere" no-one has a clue where we are!

The next outings Sarah and I went on were to gather gear for our joint adventures because I definitely intended to do that more often. It became a very regular that continued long after the divorce :)

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mistwalker said:
Interesting how people get to the same place taking slightly different paths to get there.

I came to some of those similar thoughts because of my kids...just not because they were waiting on me at home....but because I had them with me. One day when Sarah was 4 we went for a hike to get away from the verbal abuse of my now ex-wife. The only thing I took was a two quart canteen full of water thrown over my shoulder, two cereal bars in a shirt pocket, a bic lighter, a mag bar, and my knife. We wondered around and looked at this and that and talked for hours. We found a spot to just sit around..I sat she ran around looking at everything. My first thought was: "man this is awesome, it's so peaceful and she has so much fun, we have got to do this more often!" The came another thought..."Oh shit, here I am...at least four miles into the woods, I have a small child, no first aid kit, no extra food, no shelter materials (and no idea what the weather was supposed to do), no light source other than the bic, no way to call for help, and other than we are "in the woods somewhere" no-one has a clue where we are!

The next outings Sarah and I went on were to gather gear for our joint adventures because I definitely intended to do that more often. It became a very regular that continued long after the divorce :)

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That is sooo cute. My cats give me the same love, but a human child is full of potential and wonder. One day, I'd love to be a parent.
 
Magnussen said:
Thanks guys...

... My mentor walks up wearing a rather bulky vest with every pocket stuffed to the max. I was a bit taken back and felt a little underdressed for the occasion. About 20 minutes into the walk, I couldn't contain my curiosity... "Do you bring all that, everytime you head into the woods?" I said. "Nope, this is for you." I laughed, he didn't. He stopped and turned around abruptly saying "If I drop dead in the next valley, I want to make damn sure you can get back out. I wan't to give you every bit of an advantage that I can. Maybe later we'll give you the knowledge neccessary to lighten my load but until then, I'm carrying your ticket home."

Rick
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That needs to be quilted on a sampler or motivational poster. Very good post.

The reason I got into Survival and woods knowledge is that I promised my family a long time ago I would always try the hardest to come back, no matter what. The knowledge and skills just increase my chances more.
 
Rick,
I used to do all sorts of crazy things in the woods or on the rivers. I am very surprised I am still here with some of the lengths I have gone to land a big salmon or steelhead. More than once I should have stayed in the river...
On a 69 mile rafting trip on a river with my pontoon boat, I remember thinking more than once, that rapid might be the last one I ever see, but I would go at it with a smile, thinking if I am going out, i am going out in style!
I got married back in August and now everything I do, I continually have in my thoughts, what will happen if I don't make it through that rapid? Like you, I am thinking of not just myself anymore. Don't get me wrong, I still do some dangerous activities, and my wife is there for some( on her own will). Once we have kids, I am sure it will be a different ball game entirely.
While I never claim to have skills as great as yours in the woods, I believe myself to be very confidant in my abilities, but I no longer find myself testing them to the extremes any more.
Your words are my thoughts exactly, well written and quite humble.
 
Magnussen said:
Thanks guys...

A good example of what I'm talking about is this...

I am training with hopes to become a Wilderness Guide, one day. Although I feel confident to head out with minimal gear and fend for myself, I would be hardpressed to fend for those under my care. I can get by with an 18th century FAK that is geared toward my needs but what about the needs of others? Sleeping bags, tents, stoves, etc... are all things I try to avoid in my own training. How can I expect to do that within a group setting? My first realization of this was with my wilderness skills mentor. This is a half Native man who can literally walk into the bush with nothing and thrive. We were heading out for a walk shortly after making camp. I had a shoulderbag with "everything I needed" that weighed all of about 6lbs. I was so proud of taking so little. My mentor walks up wearing a rather bulky vest with every pocket stuffed to the max. I was a bit taken back and felt a little underdressed for the occasion. About 20 minutes into the walk, I couldn't contain my curiosity... "Do you bring all that, everytime you head into the woods?" I said. "Nope, this is for you." I laughed, he didn't. He stopped and turned around abruptly saying "If I drop dead in the next valley, I want to make damn sure you can get back out. I wan't to give you every bit of an advantage that I can. Maybe later we'll give you the knowledge neccessary to lighten my load but until then, I'm carrying your ticket home." At the time, I didn't know whether to be greatful or insulted.... so I remained silent. Well, he's been bringing less and less gear out for our walks, so I must be doing something right. It really changed my way of thinking and I understand that my resposibilities run deeper than I thought. Everytime I go out, I have the potential to affect the lives of my wife, kids, my parents, siblings, EMS/SAR workers, etc... if you really think about it, it's enough to keep you in the safe confines of your house. However, that is very unrealistic... we have to ballance our fears and LIVE our lives to the fullest. There will always be some give and take.

Rick
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Hmmmmmm, maybe you'll find a reason to put that vest I sent you to use after all. I used it to carry my daughter's ticket home in for a couple of years :)

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Neat thoughts Rick.

Look at the size of the F*!$'n pack Rick brought when he when out with me.....for 3 hours!!!!!

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Next time don't forget the ski-do too :D :D
 
The whole kid thing changes your perspective doesn't it. I have a bunch of kids and I'm kind of a loner historically. So now, all my woods time is with my kids and my Cub Scout Pack, truth is I wouldn't change it......
 
You really have the cutest kids ever. :)
I would love to take less gear but i don't do an awful lot of over nighter's, I bring a lot of toys to play with when I go.
 
Great thread and a good point for discussion. I personally don't take near the risks now that I did before becoming a father. I am much more careful about not pushing into too extreme an enviornment that I'm not sure I can extricate myself from. Luckily, I get to spend two weeks each fall/winter with some very hard-core backcountry friends where my skill are still tested. But I know my limits and back off a whole lot at other outdoor outings where the skill/fitness level of all involved is less. Just setting up a camp and hanging out with friends has become very enjoyable. It seems like with age I don't feel the need to do the multi-day winter camping trips with one or two people who were as crazy as me. Group trips with a bunch of newbies and kids are a lot of fun!
 
if no one helps the folks that don't have mentors, we shouldn't be surprised when our favorite things to do; fishing, hunting, roughing it - all go under attack.

do your duty, help others. it doesn't make you feel rosey until later.

nothing more humbling than later on, when some other brother's kid comes up to you and starts telling you how great you are for that time you took him camping and let him throw hawks and make bows, and walk barefoot in the stickers... the time that you wanted to strangle the little hyperactive bleep, but ya did your duty, and now ya got a hunting buddy that knows his stuff....


you are doing good, press on, my brother!

you are a true human being.

vec
 
Thanks for the comments, guys.

Vec brings up an excellent point. I have read many posts about "idiots" on the trail and some of the foolish things we've seen people doing or carrying. Well, I'm sure at some point, we've all been idiots. What frustrates me is when woodswise folks like our bretheren here, don't make the effort to tastefully educate the misguided. I know there are some fools who do everything to stay that way... there is not much you can do with them... but I have learned many skills from complete strangers while on the trails. Sometimes, I watch from a distance while at a portage.... other times I have been shown a better way from a generous passer-by. That's why gatherings of like-minded individuals are so important. Spread the word, bird!:thumbup:

There is no shelter for "Ego" in the wilderness. You have to be confident enough to let go of pride and simply do what is right. I can honestly say that the times that I have been the most wrong, were the times that I felt I was absolutely right.:foot::o


Rick
 
Responsibility can really take the fun out of a lot of things, but it also can add a different kind of fun, especially if it's your own kids.

When I was young and single I took ridiculous risks all the time. Now that I have so many kids who depend on me, everything has changed. Even when I was in the military I took a lot less risks on deployments because I knew that I needed to get home. I don't jump out of airplanes for a living anymore, I don't base jump or parachute for fun anymore, I don't mountain guide any more (more due to injuries, though). I have kids and I feel it's irresponsible to risk my life for fun just to ruin theirs.

I spent more than a decade as a professional guide. I spent most of that time as a mountain guide (and most of that time as an alpine guide), but I also occassionally did river guiding to help friends, backpack guiding for extra money and I still teach the occassional wilderness survival class. Guiding was a dream come true for me (you know, somebody else paying for you to play), but there are also a lot of drawbacks. You become responsible for every client you have. That means carrying that 4 lbs. FAK, extra survival gear, maybe a GPS and PLB, extra food, etc. My svelte 20 lbs. pack quickly jumped up to 50 or 60 lbs. on many trips, depending on the skill of your clients (and more when I'm taking out young Boy Scouts who can't carry much and skills are nearly non-existent).

The key is, and my advice to you Rick, is that you have a strict packing list that must be followed and you have a gear layout to make sure they have what they're supposed to (the packing list is up to you, but make sure it includes basic survival supplies such as a space blanket, lighter, headlamp, energy bars, etc). If they don't have everything then they don't get to go out, no exceptions. You have to be cut throat about it. Unfortunately I've found that people who could afford me were often very rich, and often times very entitled and felt that YOU are working for THEM so they get to call the shots. Never give in to that and make sure that they know you're in charge. This will also inspire confidence in you when something bad happens (not IF, but WHEN, because if you play this game long enough there will be accidents and things will sometimes go wrong. Statistics and Murphy are against you!). They need to believe in you and need to listen to what you say without questions and react quickly, because it may save your lives.

The other thing I've noticed about myself is that I sometimes will ruin some of my personal trips to help others from doing something stupid to get themselves hurt of killed, which will mean that I will have to put myself at risk to help them. A preemptive rescue of sorts (or stupidity check, as I like to think of it). For example, at popular climbing areas I often stop what I'm doing because some amateur has taken it upon himself (it's always some cocky guy) to teach others how to "climb" and is doing something that is dangerous that will get them or others hurt or killed. I take the time to do some quick free lessons while trying to convey to the group in a diplomatic way that their chosen leader is an idiot who doesn't know what he's doing and is going to get them killed. I've helped on way too many climbing accidents to not stop and help those who are not knowledgable. I figure I can help them now, or I can spend the time on a SAR scraping off the rock pizza.

Responsibility. I guess it's a sign of maturity at least, right?
 
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It's all about "acceptable risks". Which is a very individual thing.... thanks, Kage... great post.


Rick
 
there are work-arounds to a lot of probelms too, in group leadership.

1) don't bring people out who aren't prepared mentally, physically, or spititually, or all or part of all three of those. - thos efolks almost always are looking for an out - give them one - "Hey, i think we need to review some skills, how about we do that midweek for X amount of dollars?" i've never been turned down. YMMV.

2) if you do need to take out risky people, clover-pattern around a base camp area, so yoiu still get the long hike in, but you are never far from "Home." - this irks some folks - just smile and say since they are ready, they can come on teh advanced trip next time, and that you will accept a check.

3) freebies are okay, like brother kage mentions - i do similar things for SCUBA divers, free divers and cliff jumpers, etc. here - but the fact is, you can't help everyone, even if you are SAR (i was). and you have a family to feed, drive on. there is no reason to berate someone softly who is going to get folks killed - talk to them in private if you can, be prepared to go to war if it is that important to you (i did that with SCUBA instructors for a while - i was the one being attacked for my methods though. i won because what i was doing made better, safer, divers, while what they wanted me to do was follow curriculae - this is another lesson in professional field skills teaching - don't be a bureaucrat - if you are going to tear someone down, know why what they are doing is bad, not what page in the manual says it is bad, etc.).

if you teach, you will have enemies.

best to pick the ones you want instead of just letting them pop up randomly.


stay in the center.

vec
 
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