Fun thread on Sword Forum: Japanese sword terminology flame war

anyway, we're getting off subject, so to steer it back a bit, you can see the distinct 'hamon' (transition between tempered and untempered section of the edge) on my axe in my avatar picture. see - i can use japanese on a weapon as well. i think the jap sword purists are like a bunch of geeks who overly complicate the whole thing.
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Don't lump every japanese sword collector and student into the 'purist' category. Only a few of us abuse the terminology - the vast majority use Japanese terms for a very good reason, which is because there are quite a number of said terms with no direct English equivalents.

Once more:

Japanese sword terminology is not a secret language made up solely for hype - those are real Japanese terms, used by the Japanese (and afiocionados of other cultures) to refer to parts of the japanese sword which defy English descriptions.

Okay, picture a japanese sword. Look at the tip...if the blade is of the correct shape, you will see a line marking the transition between the edge of the blade body and the edge on the tip. It is right where the tip curves upwards.

What do you call that line?

Do you use 'tip line'? Or 'Line running perpendicular to the blade ridge'? Or 'Boundary line'?

Any of those 3 terms are too ambiguous, or could mean blade flaws, scratches, hamon irregularities.

The proper Japanese term for that line is 'yokote', which HAS no English equivalent. I challenge you to find a single, concise English word that is fully equivalent to 'yokote'.

Another example, one which you brought up. Yes, the term 'hamon' refers to the hardened edge of the sword, but it literally translates into 'edge signature' (ha = edge, mon = family crest). The 'hamon' is more than just the hard, sharp edge which cuts the enemy - properly executed with just the right amount and mixture of clay, and properly polished by a master togishi, it becomes a work of art. I know of no other sword from any other culture which places such high esteem on the pattern of the hardened edge.

Another term is 'munemachi', which refers to the notch on the spine side of the blade, at the border between the polished region and the tang. See how cumbersome it is to describe it in English? A single word 'munemachi' dispenses with all the lip flapping. Also, 'munemachi' roughly translates into 'blade spine notch', but saying that in English could mean a notch which was cut by accident/design on the spine of the blade, at any location along the blade spine. Far better to use one term which describes, exactly, what part of the sword it refers to.

It takes only a few days to get acquainted with 90% of the most commonly used terminology anyway...stuff like nakago, hamon, kissaki, boshi, yokote, mune, munemachi, hamachi, habaki, tsuka, tsuba, menuki, fuchi, kashira, kurigata, koiguchi, kojiri, saya, mekugi, seppa, samegawa, tsukaito, etc. Seems confusing, but it gradually grows on you, and reverting back to English for these commonly used terms (and much, much more) quickly becomes a hassle...
 
The Innuit (Eskimo to the white-eyes) have dozens of unique words for snow, based on subtle differences in color, grain size, temperature, cohesiveness, slipperyness, etc.

It's still snow.

English is a world wide language partially because we don't need specialized words for subtle differences which mean little in practice. (and partially because we refuse to learn any other languages)

if i were in an environment where the subtlety made a difference i might indeed want to learn and use all those terms. as my life is more likely to depend on which powder & how much i pack into my .45acp reloads than the nagasa and sori of my katana, i'll stick to english, it might be more wordy but at least i don't need to learn another language.

p.s.
The proper Japanese term for that line is 'yokote', which HAS no English equivalent. I challenge you to find a single, concise English word that is fully equivalent to 'yokote
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yokote: the transverse ridge seperating the point from the rest of the blade.

seems clear enuff to me....most western cutlery is not ground that way often enough to need a single word...

Anyway, my main point is don't get wrapped up in the terminology, whether it's a point or a kissaki, if you poke it correctly into your opponent they cease to be an opponent. your daisho were and are weapons first and artistic objects to be discussed in esoteric terminology second.

p.s. - i went thru my japanese phase back in the eighties, went to japan for a while, did my research, had a katana made for me by one of the then designated 'living treasure' sword-smiths, went thru the fun of getting an export permit and hand-carrying it back to the states. it was stolen two years later and that was the end of my japanese period. 180,000 yen down the tubes...

I may be a southron redneck, but i ain't as stupid as i let on either.
 
The Innuit (Eskimo to the white-eyes) have dozens of unique words for snow, based on subtle differences in color, grain size, temperature, cohesiveness, slipperyness, etc.

It's still snow.
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To us, it's still snow, but I'm sure you already know that they needed to distinguish between different types of snow in order to navigate through their snowy environment, which has almost zilch in the way of landmarks or signposts...

English is a world wide language partially because we don't need specialized words for subtle differences which mean little in practice. (and partially because we refuse to learn any other languages)

if i were in an environment where the subtlety made a difference i might indeed want to learn and use all those terms. as my life is more likely to depend on which powder & how much i pack into my .45acp reloads than the nagasa and sori of my katana, i'll stick to english, it might be more wordy but at least i don't need to learn another language.
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See above.

Ah, but the subtlety DOES make a different in the world of collecting japanese swords. It doesn't matter whether my katana is tori sori, with a chu kissaki and a choji hamon when it comes down to using it to fight and possibly kill another human being. I'll just swing and swing until he stops moving.

But aesthetic-wise, it does matter. I'll be the first to admit that swords are an anachronism of the modern world - outdated weapons which are easily outclassed by a simple 9mm handgun. Heck, khukuris are an anachronism of the modern world when it comes to combat. I'm sure it's very exciting to hear of khukuri charges back in WWII, but I'm almost positive that some guy with a rifle or, even worse, a machinegun WILL have a tremendous advantage over a bunch of guys running at him with melee weapons. There will be the odd time when whipping out a knife is better than trying to reload or unjam a gun, but I wouldn't bet my life on it :/

yokote: the transverse ridge seperating the point from the rest of the blade.

seems clear enuff to me....most western cutlery is not ground that way often enough to need a single word...
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That's still not a single word. Kind of like describing a 'taco' as a tortilla shell filled with ground beef, cheese, lettuce and sour cream. Why not simply say 'taco'?

And western cutlery is western cutlery...usually using terms from western languages like Spanish, Italian, French etc. Whether you say 'armas blancas' or 'armas bianchi' or 'armes blanches', it all means the same thing - 'white arms', or cut-and-thrust weapons with steel blades.

But how do you quickly describe the 'cho' on a khukuri? In English, you might say 'notch'...but are you referring to a notch on the edge? Or a notch on the handle? So you clarify and say 'blade notch' to restrict the notch to the blade section of the khukuri, but then you have to distinguish between a notched edge and the 'cho'.

I notice that almost everyone here on this forum has no problem using Nepali terms to describe parts of the khukuri. 'Cho' is immediately understood to be that notch cut out just above the bolster, on the edge side of the blade.


Anyway, my main point is don't get wrapped up in the terminology, whether it's a point or a kissaki, if you poke it correctly into your opponent they cease to be an opponent. your daisho were and are weapons first and artistic objects to be discussed in esoteric terminology second.
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Which is exactly my stance...when you're swinging a blade for your dear life, japanese terms and specialized terminology go out the window. But when you're talking about the aesthetics of your sword blade - which, as I've mentioned before, is an outdated weapon on the modern battlefield - only then do the terms really matter.

p.s. - i went thru my japanese phase back in the eighties, went to japan for a while, did my research, had a katana made for me by one of the then designated 'living treasure' sword-smiths, went thru the fun of getting an export permit and hand-carrying it back to the states. it was stolen two years later and that was the end of my japanese period. 180,000 yen down the tubes...

I may be a southron redneck, but i ain't as stupid as i let on either.
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I'm in love with Japanese swords, and have always been since an early age, but I don't consider them the end-all-be-all of swords. I'm fully aware of the high quality of old European weapons - if I ever forget that, I need only look at Peter Johnsson's work, or a nicely dressed up Atrim blade.

I'm not an aspiring ninja, or a weekend samurai. I do not believe that a japanese sword (or any sword) can cut boulders and oak trees like a hot knife through butter - that's just pure B.S. churned out by Hollywood and manga artists.

I'm simply fascinated by the intricacies of the manufacture and appreciation of ALL bladed weapons - khukuris, longswords, bastard swords, rapiers, etc etc. It's just that my first love is for a particular method of manufacture and finishing which results in a Japanese-styled sword, whether it's a nihonto or a gaijin-to or some shinken made in China.

And I never said you were stupid :/
 
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22635

Above is a link to a Sword Forum thread by a well-known Japanese sword polisher/mounter. The craftsmanship on the entire blade is spectacular, and it is my personal opinion that it is the equal of any nihonto from fabled Japan. In fact, I saved all the pictures so I can look at them over and over again.

That said, it will kill a person no quicker than a Hanwei Practical Plus Katana (a low end production sword, or kazu-uchimono). It will outlast and outcut that practical plus katana, but do you really care which sword you're using when you're fighting for your life? The best sword in such a situation is the one in your hands...
 
quote:
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The Innuit (Eskimo to the white-eyes) have dozens of unique words for snow, based on subtle differences in color, grain size, temperature, cohesiveness, slipperyness, etc.

It's still snow.
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Just a bit of linguistic trivia:

There are actually only four words for snow in Inuit. The often-repeated line about them having so many snow terms is an anthropological 'urban legend.' I suppose it's survived so long because, as in the above discussion, it helps to emphasize points in any debate about the necessity of jargon and specialized vocabulary.

A book was even titled after this:

Pullum, Geoffrey K. 1991. The Great Eskimo Vocabulary Hoax and Other Irreverent Essays on the Study of Language. U Chicago Press.
 
Hi ruel;

i admit i exagerated for effect as you said. i've never had the opportunity to discuss snow with an innuit, closest i got was being stationed in kodiak for a while, the natives are mostly aleute's there, my recollection is standing in a snowstorm with one, her description of it was 'friggin snow', her friend called it 'a goddamn blizzard' - 2 down 2 to go....

for kmark:

we seem to be approaching a concensus of opinion, as this is an HI kukri forum devoted to the best of the best, i expect to use a few nepali terms where appropriate, as i would use more japanese on a forum devoted to that weapon. i still see a lot of english here tho.

also don't think kuk's are an anachronism as they are still a very usefull multi-purpose camping/field tool
and you'll see many more of them being carried into battle in afghanistan & iraq than you will see katana. might not be better than a .45 (or 9mm nowadays) but better than throwing rocks when you run out of lead.

p.s. nice blade, unusual to see the bold gunome choji - like hamon extending into the shinogiji area like that.
 
we seem to be approaching a concensus of opinion, as this is an HI kukri forum devoted to the best of the best, i expect to use a few nepali terms where appropriate, as i would use more japanese on a forum devoted to that weapon. i still see a lot of english here tho.
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Such as 'cho' for the traditional notch cut out above the bolster in the shape of a cow's hoof, but 'grip' or 'handle' for the khukuri's grip/handle, and 'bolster' for the metal collar just above the grip, because there are direct english equivalents for those sections of the khukuri.

But then you have english equivalents for the fullers in a blade (ang khola, dui chirra, tin chirra), yet we still use the Nepali terms. Whatever comes naturally, I guess.

also don't think kuk's are an anachronism as they are still a very usefull multi-purpose camping/field tool
and you'll see many more of them being carried into battle in afghanistan & iraq than you will see katana. might not be better than a .45 (or 9mm nowadays) but better than throwing rocks when you run out of lead.
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True enough. I've heard that field knives on the modern battlefield are used mostly for mundane tasks, and certainly a khukuri would be more than sufficient for stuff like cutting shelter, breaking straps, pounding stakes into the ground, etc. And when you're out of ammo, a knife in hand is better than none, especially if you're armed with something like an M-43.

p.s. nice blade, unusual to see the bold gunome choji - like hamon extending into the shinogiji area like that.
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The fittings alone (tsuba, fuchi/kashira, menuki, seppa) already cost more than a H.I. kothimora - that's the curse of the japanese katana, where more than 60% of the cost comes from the fittings, mounting and especially the polishing. When you buy an expensive katana, you're not buying additionaly cutting power - you're buying looks :/

Howard Clark is known for making blades with very wild hamon. There was one blade where you could actually see (depending on personal interpretation) three hills enshrouded in mist. It was absolutely spectacular.

I was so impressed with his work that I went and ordered a bare, unpolished Howard Clark 1086 and fittings from Patrick Hastings which can be seen here: http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=28036. It's undergoing polishing and mounting by Rick Barrett, and I expect it should be complete by February of 2004, possibly March.
 
Originally posted by BruiseLeee
Looked more like a savage beating than a war.

Some folks seem to enjoy stirring up trouble. At least on the internet you loose fewer teeth. :)
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Loose fewer teeth? I haven't lost ANY yet! Hiding behind a keyboard is the perfect defense. :D
 
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