A friend of mine is considering the purchase of a functional katana for training. He is on a bit of a budget and I recommended the Paul Chen Practical Katana. He found a place that apparently makes functional katanas custom sized but they list the blade material as an "Alloy of Zinc & Tin & Lead." The website is www.samurai-store.com, any info about this place would be greatly appreciated. I am not a sword expert so I didn't really know what to tell him when he asked about them other than to say I would try to find out a little about the company. It's based out of japan so the "Alloy of Zinc & Tin & Lead" description may be just a bad translation. If anyone has had any dealings with this place or can offer any information at it would be a huge help.
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functional katana
- Thread starter Rocdog
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Iaito as per that sword are designed for the kata processes. Great if all he's doing is going through kata, but they are not "functional" swords in the respect that they can be used for cutting.
Hold fast to your recommendation of the PK, or perhaps suggest going a little more expensive and getting a Practical Plus. Very similar swords but the PPK is a little better in pretty much every respect, and it is dismountable for maintenance as real swords should be.
There are other low-cost recommendations out there, but the Hanwei swords are quite popular.
Hold fast to your recommendation of the PK, or perhaps suggest going a little more expensive and getting a Practical Plus. Very similar swords but the PPK is a little better in pretty much every respect, and it is dismountable for maintenance as real swords should be.
There are other low-cost recommendations out there, but the Hanwei swords are quite popular.
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I don't have any numbers in front of me, but on the average, an alloy-bladed iaito is going to be slightly lighter than a real sword. The weight varies though, some are less than 2 lbs and others are around 2.5 lbs.
The lighter weight and somewhat more polite balancing tends to make kata easier on the wrists during long drills.
But as I said, you can't use them for cutting, and if you want to cut, you need a "real" sword.
The lighter weight and somewhat more polite balancing tends to make kata easier on the wrists during long drills.
But as I said, you can't use them for cutting, and if you want to cut, you need a "real" sword.
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an alloy iaito is made from a zinc aluminium alloy and is usually about 1 1/2 - 2 pounds. they are made strictly for kata practice and usually low level iaido practioners so they can get a feel for using a "real" sword. now as for shinken "real" swords, unless he has practice in cutting he should not attempt to take on the task. for the most part, ive seen people attempt cutting practifce before taking any instruction in it and usually end up bending or breaking a blade. its very very easy to bend a katana. found that out through some tough learning experiences. (bend a thousand dollar katana and you end up crying over it TRUST me it just flat out sucks). now, Paul Chen does make a two iaito called the Nami and Gorin iaito. there is a slight and somewhat important difference between the two aforementioned swords and regular iaito. they are somewhat expensive boasting a 300 dollar price tag, but are made of hand forged steel making them quite a bit stronger than alloy iaito.
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well I study iaido, we can use shinken at basic levels if our sensei deems us confident enough too...he told me I could but prefer Iaito to avoid nicks on the fingers for the time being 
. but the "unless you have training you should cut" is a load of it, I have been cutting longer then I've been training, and even in training you can bust a sword (it goes with the territory).
and $300 for an iaito is very cheap I just ordered a Iaito from www.swordstore.com and it cost just shy under USD$1000...the Nami and Gorin are the lower end of the scale but for Iaido they will do, I backed out of my order and went with a sword store Iaito purely because I'll be getting japanese fittings, made in japan, and a quality alloy blade that will last for as long as I'll be training (and even when it wears out the fittings can be used for mounting a bare blade).
If you study iaido look at how serious you are when buying an iaito, if you pay $1000 for one that lasts 4 years its more then paid itself off with the skill you'll have gained in that time.
. but the "unless you have training you should cut" is a load of it, I have been cutting longer then I've been training, and even in training you can bust a sword (it goes with the territory).and $300 for an iaito is very cheap
I just ordered a Iaito from www.swordstore.com and it cost just shy under USD$1000...the Nami and Gorin are the lower end of the scale but for Iaido they will do, I backed out of my order and went with a sword store Iaito purely because I'll be getting japanese fittings, made in japan, and a quality alloy blade that will last for as long as I'll be training (and even when it wears out the fittings can be used for mounting a bare blade).If you study iaido look at how serious you are when buying an iaito, if you pay $1000 for one that lasts 4 years its more then paid itself off with the skill you'll have gained in that time.
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Whoa! I didn't think real swords got broken, bent, or otherwise significantly damaged! I've fired my swords into/through wood (hard/soft), chopped 2x4s, split hard maple, jumped on them, cut huge amounts of fiber in the form of used 3" fast rope, missed and hit steel clamps, hammered them through 1/4 steel all thread, and had nothing worse than some surface scratches and tiny nicks.
Tell me how your swords are dying!
Tell me how your swords are dying!
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Is it so surprising that swords can be fairly durable?
I supplied a gun barrel to Al Massey to try a "just f***ing try to cut a barrel in half with a sword" test. Among the swords used, I remember a few were Gus Trim swords. Now, the guys doing the testing included Al Massey and Randal Graham if I recall, and they used full-force overhead swings. While making small notches in the gun barrel (at deepest, Al relayed to me, they got maybe 1/16" deep), the swords survived no damage other than slightly dulled edges.
In use, many well-made swords are not very brittle. Further, even look at some knives where they hammer the edge through bolts with minimal or no damage. It is not due to some overwhelmingly inefficient edge geometry, it's just good quality.
I think the assumption that swords on the whole are fragile helps promote the myths of how absolutely insanely incredible things like Howard Clark's L6 blades are. Strangely enough, the edges of those things are still stress-relieved martensite, which is the same crystalline structure in the edges of conventional Japanese-style swords.
With sufficient stress on the edge, yeah you'll eventually cause rolling or chips or stress cracks or whatever, but swords can be pretty tough even under some of the aforementioned "abuses".
Not that we can promote that sort of thing. It is stress above and beyond what sword arts promote, it can potentially cause damage to the blade when executed poorly, and sword makers often do not guarantee beyond "reasonable" use.
I've bent a katana before and I know how touchy some can be. However, if you notice some makers' destruction testing, there are a good share of blades that can easily handle far more than swordsmen will ever deal with in conventional practice.
I supplied a gun barrel to Al Massey to try a "just f***ing try to cut a barrel in half with a sword" test. Among the swords used, I remember a few were Gus Trim swords. Now, the guys doing the testing included Al Massey and Randal Graham if I recall, and they used full-force overhead swings. While making small notches in the gun barrel (at deepest, Al relayed to me, they got maybe 1/16" deep), the swords survived no damage other than slightly dulled edges.
In use, many well-made swords are not very brittle. Further, even look at some knives where they hammer the edge through bolts with minimal or no damage. It is not due to some overwhelmingly inefficient edge geometry, it's just good quality.
I think the assumption that swords on the whole are fragile helps promote the myths of how absolutely insanely incredible things like Howard Clark's L6 blades are. Strangely enough, the edges of those things are still stress-relieved martensite, which is the same crystalline structure in the edges of conventional Japanese-style swords.
With sufficient stress on the edge, yeah you'll eventually cause rolling or chips or stress cracks or whatever, but swords can be pretty tough even under some of the aforementioned "abuses".
Not that we can promote that sort of thing. It is stress above and beyond what sword arts promote, it can potentially cause damage to the blade when executed poorly, and sword makers often do not guarantee beyond "reasonable" use.
I've bent a katana before and I know how touchy some can be. However, if you notice some makers' destruction testing, there are a good share of blades that can easily handle far more than swordsmen will ever deal with in conventional practice.
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Yep, it's all about quality. The steel needs to free of cracks at the edge, and the spine needs to be stiff enough to not suffer a lot of ductile failure. Too many blades are full of invisible cracks at the edge and held together with gummy soft backs. Get a sword made of steel able withstand shock at high hardness...L-6, S-7, CPM 3V
I don't think I could make a full power strike on a rifle barrel with the aforementioned sword without sustaining substantial edge damage ( I grind most of my edges very thin ) . Maybe a vw but not a rifle...then again my sword was designed to cut giant free hanging ropes and 2x4s in one swipe.
Alright now you've got me thinking...what kind of gun barrel? What hardness? Outside diameter and caliber? Remember me as the guy who cut the free hanging rope with a mild steel blade; I love a challenge.
I don't think I could make a full power strike on a rifle barrel with the aforementioned sword without sustaining substantial edge damage ( I grind most of my edges very thin ) . Maybe a vw but not a rifle...then again my sword was designed to cut giant free hanging ropes and 2x4s in one swipe.
Alright now you've got me thinking...what kind of gun barrel? What hardness? Outside diameter and caliber? Remember me as the guy who cut the free hanging rope with a mild steel blade; I love a challenge.
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Didn't I offer you video evidence? Sorry I can't send it online (I have to use public access computers and file transfer is not permitted).
Anyway, I got on this thread because I was curious about how swords fail.
Tell me what would you have in mind as an extreme cutting test.
Anyway, I got on this thread because I was curious about how swords fail.
Tell me what would you have in mind as an extreme cutting test.
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I've seen William's video and he definitely makes high quality blades, and frankly, I have to agree, a katana or any blade for that matter shouldn't bend or break during performance cutting tests.
Hi guys. This is my first post on the Sword discussion forum so go a little easy on me. 
I think a lot of people miss the subtle idea that a traditional Nihonto is usually quite different in terms of performance than a modern, western made sword of mono steel....the low alloy steel blades are a multitude tougher and resistant to bending than even the toughest of the antique stuff.
There is a lot of hype about antique Japanese swords, forged by masters, a million layers of steel, that can cut through armor and trees and boulders and still shave and most of it is just that....hype. My personal opinion is that we need to be careful about comparing modern blades made of modern steel using modern heat treat methods to antique swords made of tamahagane and heat treated over an open forge. The truth is that Japanese swordsmanship techniques evolved into highly advanced techniques because the swords perform in a particular way....they bend and leave you helpless if your technique is bad. And the famed, unequalled steel of Japan folded a million times? Naaahh. Most of the stuff is not all that good and barely has enough carbon to get hard. It is beautiful. It is traditional. But 5160, L6 or even 1050 modern steels literally blow it's doors off.
I have seen katana bent to ruination on a single rolled and soaked tatame mat. A powerful side cut with bad technique and improper angle of attack and grip can cause a lot of lateral forces on a blade....and a traditional blade is very soft on the back and very hard on the edge. They do not spring or flex much at all. They bend and stay bent. Nihonto do that is. Most western swords have a lot more ability to survive a beginners not-so-perfect technique as the steel is better and they often have alloying elements that make them a little more resilient. You really have to have cut with a lot of traditional Nihonto and a lot of western swords to understand the difference.
The most common failure I have seen on Nihonto is a lateral "set" or bend. Sometimes the bend can be complex (like a corkscrew) and sometimes the bend can actually leave wrinkles in the surface steel. Bad cuts, especially yokogiri, a side cut, can be devastating if the technique of the cutter allows the blade to hit the target at the wrong angle. And my experience is that once a sword gets bent and straightened it is just a little weaker in that spot. It will bend again easier than it did the first time. And tatame is surprisingly hard when struck with a fast moving object. Ask a water skier who has hit the water at 40 mph...it's like a rock. Take a soaked tatame (soaked 24 hours...not 4 days till it gets mushy) and punch it sometime. It is way harder and less resilient than a human body.
Of the swords I have seen bent in 13 years at different dojos none of them were western blades....they were all authentic Japanese swords.
My 2 cents and observations.
Brian
I think a lot of people miss the subtle idea that a traditional Nihonto is usually quite different in terms of performance than a modern, western made sword of mono steel....the low alloy steel blades are a multitude tougher and resistant to bending than even the toughest of the antique stuff.
There is a lot of hype about antique Japanese swords, forged by masters, a million layers of steel, that can cut through armor and trees and boulders and still shave and most of it is just that....hype. My personal opinion is that we need to be careful about comparing modern blades made of modern steel using modern heat treat methods to antique swords made of tamahagane and heat treated over an open forge. The truth is that Japanese swordsmanship techniques evolved into highly advanced techniques because the swords perform in a particular way....they bend and leave you helpless if your technique is bad. And the famed, unequalled steel of Japan folded a million times? Naaahh. Most of the stuff is not all that good and barely has enough carbon to get hard. It is beautiful. It is traditional. But 5160, L6 or even 1050 modern steels literally blow it's doors off.
I have seen katana bent to ruination on a single rolled and soaked tatame mat. A powerful side cut with bad technique and improper angle of attack and grip can cause a lot of lateral forces on a blade....and a traditional blade is very soft on the back and very hard on the edge. They do not spring or flex much at all. They bend and stay bent. Nihonto do that is. Most western swords have a lot more ability to survive a beginners not-so-perfect technique as the steel is better and they often have alloying elements that make them a little more resilient. You really have to have cut with a lot of traditional Nihonto and a lot of western swords to understand the difference.
The most common failure I have seen on Nihonto is a lateral "set" or bend. Sometimes the bend can be complex (like a corkscrew) and sometimes the bend can actually leave wrinkles in the surface steel. Bad cuts, especially yokogiri, a side cut, can be devastating if the technique of the cutter allows the blade to hit the target at the wrong angle. And my experience is that once a sword gets bent and straightened it is just a little weaker in that spot. It will bend again easier than it did the first time. And tatame is surprisingly hard when struck with a fast moving object. Ask a water skier who has hit the water at 40 mph...it's like a rock. Take a soaked tatame (soaked 24 hours...not 4 days till it gets mushy) and punch it sometime. It is way harder and less resilient than a human body.
Of the swords I have seen bent in 13 years at different dojos none of them were western blades....they were all authentic Japanese swords.
My 2 cents and observations.
Brian
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Heya Brian, nice to see you post here.
My only real point of contention is your comment about how L6, 5160, and 1050 blowing a generic "tamahagane" away. While it is true that there is a definite carbon disparity between certain pieces and others (some being pretty much "pure" iron, others having more than 2 or 3 percent carbon), a well-made sword is often from adequately sorted materials welded into good billets. A good smith could/can make a billet very "clean" and adequate. If heat treated properly, it would be nearly identical in "performance" to a decent 10xx blade as the chemical composition is very very similar.
OF COURSE, life isn't that simple and the majority of blades produced were in fact a serious tradeoff (my opinion a tradeoff, some folks may dislike me for this): lamination techniques. Some say it's to make blades more ductile or to prevent crack propagation, I personally think it's just an economic way of utilizing lower-carbon steel and iron without drawing away the hardenability of the edge, and "tradition" has bound a lot of people to it. If you use a higher carbon shingane/kawagane, you are making less of a tradeoff (and carbon migration will TRY to even things out a little bit), but with the low-end material, even carbon migration in that time will not help much. This preserves a high carbon edge that is fully hardenable (perhaps too much so in some cases), and leaves one with that notorious dead-soft spine that allows bending like taffy and undue edge stress. THIS is where modern blades generally leave antiques in the dust.
That said, I believe there are a number of good swords that were not made with laminate techniques, as well as swords that were well-laminated with reasonably high-carbon kawagane/shingane. If you can find a blade made in such a way with a good heat treatment (which is far from impossible just because it is old...they may not have had all the technical nomenclature we have today but many understood what it was about and what kind of variables to control), its performance would be just fine. They may not have all the aesthetic appeal of coveted Nihonto (though some do even), but they beat out the vast majority of the antique swords out there.
I still revere Nihonto for what they are and give credit that some swords made were quite excellent even by today's standards, but even a good 1050 homogenous steel sword with a good heat treat would be considered fairly "premium" in performance back in the day. The high-performance category would knock their socks off in terms of durability. Some would say that these performance makers still need to work on perfecting their geometry, but it doesn't change the reality that their blades cut and cut and keep on going. Personally I love the old "orthodox" designs, and would likely never buy a sword that has the very different shape or geometry, though I would certainly venture far enough to consider a Clark sword for instance.
I think some good antiques are more than adequate for repeated cutting exercises and fairly resilient to bending/chipping/etc, but I do agree that the vast majority of swords are much less capable than we have allowed people to believe.
Generally I just restated what you did, but emphasized that there is a minority that is not "inferior" in performance, even if only on par with a good 10xx blade (though a good 1050 or 1084 blade can take a lot of punishment!) and generally not approaching the potential of our current "performance-oriented" pieces.
There's a lot in the heat treatment, and even though it may not be adequately documented, some smiths have no doubt had very "lucky" swords come out of the quench and some have had very unstable blades.
My only real point of contention is your comment about how L6, 5160, and 1050 blowing a generic "tamahagane" away. While it is true that there is a definite carbon disparity between certain pieces and others (some being pretty much "pure" iron, others having more than 2 or 3 percent carbon), a well-made sword is often from adequately sorted materials welded into good billets. A good smith could/can make a billet very "clean" and adequate. If heat treated properly, it would be nearly identical in "performance" to a decent 10xx blade as the chemical composition is very very similar.
OF COURSE, life isn't that simple and the majority of blades produced were in fact a serious tradeoff (my opinion a tradeoff, some folks may dislike me for this): lamination techniques. Some say it's to make blades more ductile or to prevent crack propagation, I personally think it's just an economic way of utilizing lower-carbon steel and iron without drawing away the hardenability of the edge, and "tradition" has bound a lot of people to it. If you use a higher carbon shingane/kawagane, you are making less of a tradeoff (and carbon migration will TRY to even things out a little bit), but with the low-end material, even carbon migration in that time will not help much. This preserves a high carbon edge that is fully hardenable (perhaps too much so in some cases), and leaves one with that notorious dead-soft spine that allows bending like taffy and undue edge stress. THIS is where modern blades generally leave antiques in the dust.
That said, I believe there are a number of good swords that were not made with laminate techniques, as well as swords that were well-laminated with reasonably high-carbon kawagane/shingane. If you can find a blade made in such a way with a good heat treatment (which is far from impossible just because it is old...they may not have had all the technical nomenclature we have today but many understood what it was about and what kind of variables to control), its performance would be just fine. They may not have all the aesthetic appeal of coveted Nihonto (though some do even), but they beat out the vast majority of the antique swords out there.
I still revere Nihonto for what they are and give credit that some swords made were quite excellent even by today's standards, but even a good 1050 homogenous steel sword with a good heat treat would be considered fairly "premium" in performance back in the day. The high-performance category would knock their socks off in terms of durability. Some would say that these performance makers still need to work on perfecting their geometry, but it doesn't change the reality that their blades cut and cut and keep on going. Personally I love the old "orthodox" designs, and would likely never buy a sword that has the very different shape or geometry, though I would certainly venture far enough to consider a Clark sword for instance.
I think some good antiques are more than adequate for repeated cutting exercises and fairly resilient to bending/chipping/etc, but I do agree that the vast majority of swords are much less capable than we have allowed people to believe.
Generally I just restated what you did, but emphasized that there is a minority that is not "inferior" in performance, even if only on par with a good 10xx blade (though a good 1050 or 1084 blade can take a lot of punishment!) and generally not approaching the potential of our current "performance-oriented" pieces.
There's a lot in the heat treatment, and even though it may not be adequately documented, some smiths have no doubt had very "lucky" swords come out of the quench and some have had very unstable blades.
No arguments from me, Robert. Great minds think alike!
Most smiths I know who have studied the Japanese stuff enough agree...tamahagane, used well and treated by an experienced smith can make an *AwEsOmE* blade in terms of beauty and functionality. I would never degrade traditional Nihonoto as they are the standard to which all other aspire in many respects. My point, and I think you agree, is that it is unfair to judge traditional Nihonto to modern blades or western made blades. Geometry aside, there are some awesome "Gaijinto" being made in terms of performance. Proper geometry is tough to attain but I have to tell you, Howard Clarks greatest attribute and accomplishment is that his geometry and traditional functioning is stunning. I have cut with quite a few Japanese antiques and a few of Howards. Many people miss the fact that Howard makes some very traditional outlines despite the fact that they are modern steel with state of the art, digital controlled heat treat. The man is an artist.
I think the hamon is over rated. IMO. It evolved from an attempt by ancient smiths to have the best of both worlds...hard edge, ductile and tough back. It was their solution to a mutually exclusive property of steel. It is beautiful (the Hamon) but unnecessary in a modern blade. Collectors will shun a blade without one but those interested in pure performance don't care much. I never judge a blade by gingerbread.
Western blades, that is.
Brian
Most smiths I know who have studied the Japanese stuff enough agree...tamahagane, used well and treated by an experienced smith can make an *AwEsOmE* blade in terms of beauty and functionality. I would never degrade traditional Nihonoto as they are the standard to which all other aspire in many respects. My point, and I think you agree, is that it is unfair to judge traditional Nihonto to modern blades or western made blades. Geometry aside, there are some awesome "Gaijinto" being made in terms of performance. Proper geometry is tough to attain but I have to tell you, Howard Clarks greatest attribute and accomplishment is that his geometry and traditional functioning is stunning. I have cut with quite a few Japanese antiques and a few of Howards. Many people miss the fact that Howard makes some very traditional outlines despite the fact that they are modern steel with state of the art, digital controlled heat treat. The man is an artist.
I think the hamon is over rated. IMO. It evolved from an attempt by ancient smiths to have the best of both worlds...hard edge, ductile and tough back. It was their solution to a mutually exclusive property of steel. It is beautiful (the Hamon) but unnecessary in a modern blade. Collectors will shun a blade without one but those interested in pure performance don't care much. I never judge a blade by gingerbread.
Western blades, that is.
Brian