Future of knife steels

I feel knife steels are surpassing what the average guy knows.

Example. Bark River now uses V3 instead of A2. To a knife guy we know that V3 is tuffer and holds an edge longer than A2 but in reality do you think the average guy who is buying the knife cares or knows. In reality A2 is more then enough to do most of their chores with. What's it matter if you cut your steak with A2 or V3, the steak does not know the difference and both can cut it at superior levels.

I think only knife guys who like the numbers care. Any quality steel is good. As a knife guy I know I can get by with 1095 and have no great need for m390 xyz or what ever is next.

Dang it i just made me learn something. I dont need super steels because i know what i know. Average Joe dont know much so he needs a Steel that never goes dull or needs sharpened which will someday happen. You will be able to whittle steel bars with it.

I don't even know what i just wrote so skip this answer.
 
Re-reading my post, frankly, is disheartening.

So... on a more positive note:

I'm very happy with many steels and now own and use: ZDP-189, K390, REX-45, Maxamet, and now (but unused) 4V.

I am fascinated with CPM-4V and it's definitely part of the knife steel future. From what I understand it beats M4 for overall durability, at least behind the edge, and possibly pulls slightly ahead for edge retention, or at least within a 10% margin of error. Out of the very tough steels, M4 has been the best for edge retention so the prospect of something beating it is a little exciting.

I'm rooting for 4V, but regardless, I would love to own M4... but why? I have 4V!

There's a bunch of other amazing steels in knives out there, and some are stainless. They compete with the above steels in various ways, or are simply analogs made by a different steel company.

Off hand I can think of 10V, A11, Cru-wear, HAP40, Vanadis 4 extra (Bohler's 4V), plus S90V/S110V and others I'm probably forgetting. There's also LC200N and various nitrogen steels. I'd be happy owing any of those, each for their own reasons.

With simple tools like Flitz, EDCi, Nano Oil 10 weight, and Nano Oil 85 weight, and especially with not living by saltwater, I can easily take care of and maintain non-stainless steels.

Im quickly becoming a steel snob, edge snob, and a steel geek. Maxamet has redefined how I look at other steels.

I now loosely look at other steels in terms of Percent of Maxamet. I find it easier to visualize by assigning Maxamet with a numerical value of 1000. It's anecdotal and evolving so I'll keep most of that to myself.

The test media being cut, along with the method that's being used to cut, matters a lot for how an edge will hold up. This assumes that you're sharpening correctly and consistently.

Conveniently, on the Cedric and Ada YouTube channel, Maxamet makes about 1000 cuts through Sisal rope.

While I do cut Sisal twine at work, it's just a tiny bit. However Sisal rope is a great test media. His tests are a great guideline.

Another good test media is what CATRA uses. They rank steel edge retention as a percent of 440C so this places virtually all modern steels as over 100%. They use Silicon impregnated card stock as a controlled test media.

Thanks to Super Steel Steve's video (not for the easily offended, lol...), I now know that cardboard that's new, clean, and unused is almost entirely cellulose, at least in terms of what's wearing the edge. There's only trace amounts of silicon. This makes cardboard a fantastic test media. It wears steel differently than rope does, and as a result it's one more datapoint where we can compare steels that's duplicateable and verifiable.

I know I'm not the only one who's spent a chunk of quarantine time watching edge retention tests on YouTube.

I very much appreciate the channels Cedric & Ada, Outpost 76, Super Steel Steve, Tom Hosang, InThePocket, and others that do edge retention tests. All of it is valuable data points.

Almost any kind of repetitive cutting is a pain.
 
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midnight flyer said:
This is actually all about marketing. If the knife manufacturers don't develop something "new and improved" they won't have much to sell.

Can't imagine too many of the big time buyers here purchasing the same old steel in a new knife just because a new version has a slightly different handle.

But if a new knife has a slightly different handle and a newly named "super steel" that they have been waiting for possibly for a year or two, it's a whole new ball game.

Manufacturers tout the latest and greatest and raise their prices accordingly. New buzz is generated by a new knife, and the manufacturer has something new to talk about at SHOT and in the magazines. Bored clients with disposable income run out and buy because if it has a little different handle and the newest super steel it justifies it being a whole new knife. The old knife was good, but the new knife is much better... finally!

Apply, shampoo, rinse, repeat. The cycle of re-marketing existing products.

Robert
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Well put.

I believe the longer one is around this hobby, the more one appreciates this pattern in knife sales.
 
whp said:
Well put.

I believe the longer one is around this hobby, the more one appreciates this pattern in knife sales.
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True. I was slightly disappointed by Cold Steel’s shift from XHP to S35VN, but I’m definitely nitpicking there. For my purposes at least, S35VN will give me more performance than I could possibly demand from it. I won’t be using my folders to chop thicc trees anytime soon. :D
 
On a slightly different note, does anyone here think that factors like blade shape and cross section matter more than blade steel?
 
Therom said:
To be honest, as long as it is properly done most stainless steel works fine for me.
I don’t like 440* and 8cr* but that’s about it.

154cm or s30v are good to go for most EDC tasks
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Agreed. No complaints about my CTS-BD1 knife. Cuts like a dream and no rust spots yet.
 
midnight flyer said:
This is actually all about marketing. If the knife manufacturers don't develop something "new and improved" they won't have much to sell.

Can't imagine too many of the big time buyers here purchasing the same old steel in a new knife just because a new version has a slightly different handle.

But if a new knife has a slightly different handle and a newly named "super steel" that they have been waiting for possibly for a year or two, it's a whole new ball game.

Manufacturers tout the latest and greatest and raise their prices accordingly. New buzz is generated by a new knife, and the manufacturer has something new to talk about at SHOT and in the magazines. Bored clients with disposable income run out and buy because if it has a little different handle and the newest super steel it justifies it being a whole new knife. The old knife was good, but the new knife is much better... finally!

Apply, shampoo, rinse, repeat. The cycle of re-marketing existing products.

Robert
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This reminds of Spyderco, and I’m an absolute sucker for it. It’s a winning formula. Take the time- and market-proven design like the PM2, package it with a fresh knife steel, and knife nuts like me will be all over it.

Of course, I do encourage doing homework first. I also appreciate Mr. Glesser’s honesty on most new knife steels being incremental improvements rather than big innovative leaps. I think Spyderco’s an awesome knife company.
 
Maybe improvements will be more in the direction of specialist heat treatment. E.g. delta 3V is an improvement on 3V.
 
DangerZone98 said:
On a slightly different note, does anyone here think that factors like blade shape and cross section matter more than blade steel?
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In some situations, yes.

Once you've optimized the geometry, what's left is chemical composition, and Rockwell hardness.

I've really dove head first into all of this over the last several months. I'm happy to share what I've been able to figure out.

Blade thickness and blade height can cause the material being cut to more easily bind in front of the apex, or puts more pressure against the sides, or the blade otherwise wedges. All of which definitely affects your ability to cut.

Eventually it all adds up to meet the upper limit of how hard you're willing to push on the knife before calling it dull.

From what I understand, 3 things affect the cutting performance the most.

1. Edge geometry. A more obtuse edge bevel, such as 40 or 50 inclusive, will hold a finer apex longer due to more support at the edge, but will lose its ability to cut sooner due to being wider just behind the edge of the apex. A more acute edge angle, such as 30 inclusive, will micro-blunt more rapidly however maintain its ability to cut longer overall. Its almost counterintuitive at first.

With thickness behind the edge, going thinner simply aids cutting performance due to lower drag, less bunching, and binding.

Doing a good job as a sharpener would be considered part of edge geometry.

2. Chemical composition. Grain size, types of carbides, total carbide volume, and Rockwell hardness all matter a lot to edge retention. Chemical compositions that favor both high carbide formation and high hardness will generally produce the best results.

3. Delivered Hardness. I say "delivered" because an amazing heat treat and tempering wont matter if the steel gets overheated during grinding in the factory.

Higher Rockwell hardness ratings (HRC) provides strength right at the fine apex which dramatically improves edge retention... because the edge is harder.

Cardboard in real life versus brand new cardboard in YouTube cut test videos is dirty. It's full of grit, sand, and dirt that's embedded deep into the cardboard. Especially large heavy items in extra heavy duty cardboard. When your fine apex hits those grains of sand, the effect is similar to hitting a staple, just at a much smaller scale. Because of this, higher Rockwell hardness is especially important.

In the future we'll see more steels with Cobalt as part of their composition. Cobalt allows a higher obtainable hardness without making the steel brittle. It brings other benefits too.
 
SubMicron said:
In some situations, yes.

Once you've optimized the geometry, what's left is chemical composition, and Rockwell hardness.

I've really dove head first into all of this over the last several months. I'm happy to share what I've been able to figure out.

Blade thickness and blade height can cause the material being cut to more easily bind in front of the apex, or puts more pressure against the sides, or the blade otherwise wedges. All of which definitely affects your ability to cut.

Eventually it all adds up to meet the upper limit of how hard you're willing to push on the knife before calling it dull.

From what I understand, 3 things affect the cutting performance the most.

1. Edge geometry. A more obtuse edge bevel, such as 40 or 50 inclusive, will hold a finer apex longer due to more support at the edge, but will lose its ability to cut sooner due to being wider just behind the edge of the apex. A more acute edge angle, such as 30 inclusive, will micro-blunt more rapidly however maintain its ability to cut longer overall. Its almost counterintuitive at first.

With thickness behind the edge, going thinner simply aids cutting performance due to lower drag, less bunching, and binding.

Doing a good job as a sharpener would be considered part of edge geometry.

2. Chemical composition. Grain size, types of carbides, total carbide volume, and Rockwell hardness all matter a lot to edge retention. Chemical compositions that favor both high carbide formation and high hardness will generally produce the best results.

3. Delivered Hardness. I say "delivered" because an amazing heat treat and tempering wont matter if the steel gets overheated during grinding in the factory.

Higher Rockwell hardness ratings (HRC) provides strength right at the fine apex which dramatically improves edge retention... because the edge is harder.

Cardboard in real life versus brand new cardboard in YouTube cut test videos is dirty. It's full of grit, sand, and dirt that's embedded deep into the cardboard. Especially large heavy items in extra heavy duty cardboard. When your fine apex hits those grains of sand, the effect is similar to hitting a staple, just at a much smaller scale. Because of this, higher Rockwell hardness is especially important.

In the future we'll see more steels with Cobalt as part of their composition. Cobalt allows a higher obtainable hardness without making the steel brittle. It brings other benefits too.
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Thanks for sharing this, SubMicron. Always a pleasure to learn something new about our cutting instruments.
 
My reply in the Ti/Ti thread made me reminiscent of my Combat Elite Level 3G that I bought in late 2002 or early 2003. Titanium, frame-lock and super-exotic CPM S30V! It was my first . . . real(?) knife and it was stupid expensive.

There were a lot of good steels around back then but S30V was supposed to be the one. 20 years later and it seems there are dozens available. It's hard to imagine how many more we could need.

I'm still happy with S30V and a lot of knives still use it. I'm happy with CPM 20CV, CTS 204P and BU M390 among the stainless steels that are popular now. M4 and CPM D2 (and D2) for non-stainless.

Much of the development seems to simply extract more dollars from the consumer. I think heat treatments, steel application selections, and blade geometries will be improved and optimized over than a bunch more steels coming.
 
SubMicron said:
In some situations, yes.

Once you've optimized the geometry, what's left is chemical composition, and Rockwell hardness.

...
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They all work together and there is no actual order. You can't optimize geometry without considering the steel and the hardness. You choose a steel and hardness based on what it is capable of and what you want to do with it, including edge geometry.

It's just not that simple.

And it is all far from marketing hype. Yes, there is an abundance of that and some makers do better with steels than others, but there is a lot of actual performance difference between steels. Properly sharpened, and with decent geometry, S90V will out cut D2 in cardboard all day every day. It just will.

The key is to not write it all off as marketing BS, but to get educated on the steels and manufacturers and then make appropriate decisions for you and your tasks. There's absolutely nothing wrong with loving say 420HC and being decidedly content with it but that is not the same thing as arbitrarily dismissing so many other steels as all marketing.
 
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Wanting something a little better than what we have is part of the American psyche. Always will be.

I'm very happy with Maxamet, K390, S90V etc.

But I'd still like to have something better. Maybe more Tungsten?

Better edge retention, tougher, etc.

I pray that I will never become complacent, and satisfied with the status quo.
 
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