Ganzo blade steel

[bld522]

With that information, shall we discuss the composition of the steel in question?

Why of course. This is a knife discussion forum, not an ethics discussion forum. If a knife exists and we all agree that it exists, we should be able to discuss its attributes on a forum whose very reason for existence is to discuss knives and their attributes. You aren't suggesting that the Ganzo 720 isn't a knife, are you?

 

[shecky]

Yep. The OP should have known better. There is no way to have a discussion about a counterfeit knife here without the thread turning into a diatribe against counterfeiting. Although that has nothing to do with the physical characteristics of the knife itself and is, in fact, off topic in this thread, the knife always takes a back seat once that conversation gets going. So a reasonable discussion about things like the makeup of the knife's blade steel, for instance, quickly gets shouted out of existence. Like it or not, that's just the way it is.

The replies were not only off topic and hostile, if they were off topic and hostile because they maintain the Ganzo is counterfeit, then their replies were also sloppy or made from ignorance. The Ganzo looks to have copied features of other knives. But unless it's represented as another brand, it isn't counterfeit.

 

[dkb45]

The replies were not only off topic and hostile, if they were off topic and hostile because they maintain the Ganzo is counterfeit, then their replies were also sloppy or made from ignorance. The Ganzo looks to have copied features of other knives. But unless it's represented as another brand, it isn't counterfeit.

It never stops people from crying counterfeit. I knew this thread would almost certainly become a derailed whine fest about how I am terrible for buying the knife, blah blah blah. I kept a little hope that people could be adults about it, and some fortunately have.

That said, it is definitely outside the norm to hear about a Ganzo performing like crap. I know factory edges usually give terrible performance, especially from the tendency of burning the edge during sharpening, but one or two sharpenings should get to the good steel. Every Ganzo I have handled was astoundingly... unastounding. No complaints, it just isn't especially good in any aspect. Good beater knife, not the best for knife nuts, great gift knives.

 

[demoncase]

Regardless of my opinion of counterfeits (which is negative)- It's an unanswerable question the OP has presented due to the variables involved:
1. What steel do we think his Ganzo might be based on anecdotal qualitative observations of it being somewhat harder than his experience of other steels and more prone to spotting?
2. What steel do Ganzo use?
3. Taking the monumental assumption that Ganzo's steel is consistent batch-to-batch (A rarity with chinese materials suppliers in my direct experience), the observations in 1. may be linked to the heat treatment processing of said steel- do we believe that has also been consistent batch-to-batch and knife-to-knife?

Short of taking a small sample of the blade, potting it up and etching it for microscopy then an XRF test on the chemical composition- we come back to the only information is the original observation.

Sorry.

 

[davek14]

It's all the same darn thread.

On the subject of counterfeits... It is an issue where grey areas abound and some folks have a very black and white opinion. On one end there are "tributes". I've read that the Sanrenmu 7010 is immoral and illegal and I disagree. There are many knock-offs of many products made in many countries which resemble the original even more.

Then there's the middle ground of knives which strongly resemble another.



Then you have products which are clear counterfeits with the name of the target company on the knife and box, etc.. This is obviously wrong and actually effects me badly as a consumer as well.

I have bought a few Chinese knives which are clearly not a copy of anything. I just received a Sanrenmu 7089SUX just to try the detent slipjoint mechanism.

I've even purchased a Navy 610 which is more of a knock-off. Many have had QC issues with that thing and I did too. Still, after taking it apart, cleaning it up, and reassembling, it was OK. Now it's a big, honking knife for rough tasks.

I would like to see more info on the Chinese knives disseminated calmly.

Chinese material misrepresentation is a problem however, across the board. Still, you know the clothing you are wearing is probably safe due to other people's experience. I've given a number of Sanrenmu 7010 knives as gifts. I've not checked each one out but I have carried a couple and sharpened a few. I'll have to admit that I wasn't paying real close attention but it seemed that they were all decent steel without much variation.

So I'm very interested in reports of people finding your bigger Chinese makers having great variations in hardness and alloy. This is some good information (although not enough of it).

-
Thinking about it, I read in some of the Russian forums a post by someone who actually analyzed the Chinese steels, particularly the one of the knock offs. I didn't remember the exact data, it was a list with the listed steels and what this guy found, but some of them were what was stated in the "express" site's adds, some of them were something different. I can try to find it, I don't think that it matters but it's there, it was published this year.
----------------------------------
Here, I found it:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/174VHr2smvlkOYun-HFGGLq7-bu-lTrF_D6xG3LVBYAE/edit#gid=0

A-Link to YouTube's review
B-Brand
C-Model
D-Steel, calmed to be
E-Steel, found to be

It says that Navy has an alloy variance problem as I read it. Coupled with the many reports of poor QC I think I won't buy Navy again. What do the ones with "China" in parenthesis mean? Counterfeits?

Regardless of my opinion of counterfeits (which is negative)- It's an unanswerable question the OP has presented due to the variables involved:
1. What steel do we think his Ganzo might be based on anecdotal qualitative observations of it being somewhat harder than his experience of other steels and more prone to spotting?
2. What steel do Ganzo use?
3. Taking the monumental assumption that Ganzo's steel is consistent batch-to-batch (A rarity with chinese materials suppliers in my direct experience), the observations in 1. may be linked to the heat treatment processing of said steel- do we believe that has also been consistent batch-to-batch and knife-to-knife?

Short of taking a small sample of the blade, potting it up and etching it for microscopy then an XRF test on the chemical composition- we come back to the only information is the original observation.

Sorry.

So, is Ganzo steel consistent batch to batch? You might find some actual testing as we already have but anecdotal evidence will likely be what we are left with. This is already all we have about the HT of many major manufacturers.

With the problem of misrepresentation I would be leary of buying a high dollar Chinese knife but in the budget ones I just want to know I'm getting a decent steel at a decent cost. I do want to know if that steel varies much as well.
______________________________________________________________________________________


I don't have all that many knives from these companies due to the tactical styling. I wish an American company would begin to produce (wherever) a quality knife in midrange steel which was competitive with something like the SRM 7010, but in a traditional pattern.

I don't like Rough Rider steel and actually find Sanrenmu "8cr13mov" to be just good enough.

Anyway, I'm not sure I have another one of these counterfeit, knock-off, tribute, threads in me.

But I would like to discuss the slipjoint detent mechanism in my SRM 7089SUX and whether anyone has seen any differences in Sanrenmu's "12C27" over their "8cr13mov" since the 7089SUX is "12C27". It would be neat if they made a more sedate looking slipjoint with that mechanism. I wonder if anyone will copy it.

And would they call it the "SUX".

 

[bld522]

I would like to see more info on the Chinese knives disseminated calmly.

So would I, particularly given the fact as I stated calmly that Chinese knives are "knives" by definition and we are a community whose charter is to discuss knives. Whether a separate category needs to be created to discuss Chinese knives and more specifically, counterfeits, clones, knockoffs and the like, I can't say. I only know that people who come into conversations about knives in a knife discussion forum and pollute them with their moral, ethical and political agendas should not be tolerated. That's just my opinion, of course. This is still Spark's house and any way he wants to run is fine with me. But it does seem a difficult concept to square that we would permit China-bashing on one side of our fence while allowing Chinese manufacturers to set up shop on the other. The question of whether we'd tolerate that with any other nationality is unavoidable.

 

[craytab]

Why members of this community would want to support counterfeiting I will never understand. Have at it. but if you don't want to hear about it then don't post about it :thumbup:

 

[John_0917]

So shall we ignore the fact that the company has indeed copied a design from a reputable company? Shall we ignore the fact that the company in question has illegally reproduced the locking mechanism on the same knife in question? With that information, shall we discuss the composition of the steel in question? Why do that here? There are other forums with much lower standards that people can slum around on for this garbage.

That isn't fact at all, Benchmade (or any other US company) does not have intellectual property protection in China or most other foreign countries. It's plain as day they (poorly) copied the Axis lock, but it's not an illegal reproduction/clone/copy etc.

As to the OP's original question, who knows...I wouldn't buy that garbage...the manufacturer probably doesn't even know (or care) for sure either. Chances are they just use whatever they can get cheapest, it may even vary from production run to run. Save your money and buy a Kershaw if you want to go bottom dollar import shopping.

 

[craytab]

And with that logic overseas ounterfeiting isn't even a thing. The excuses people come up with are amazing.

 

[BenchCo Spydermade]

Yup, those ganzo ripoffs are made of adamantium I think. I have a problem with counterfeits, but mutant rights are the bigger issue here.

 

[davek14]

That detent slipjoint mechanism is kinda neat. The knife clicks out of a strong detent when you open it and clicks into another when fully open. I wonder if it is cheaper to produce than a backspring system.

 

[BenchCo Spydermade]

Why of course. This is a knife discussion forum, not an ethics discussion forum. If a knife exists and we all agree that it exists, we should be able to discuss its attributes on a forum whose very reason for existence is to discuss knives and their attributes. You aren't suggesting that the Ganzo 720 isn't a knife, are you?

The fact that ganzo rips off designs is very relative because it speaks to the integrity of the company you are questioning. What is says is that company has no ethics. Then you ask a question about what the Steel is because you don't know. We can't tell you because ganzo is full of shhhh and can't be trusted. Enjoy your knife, it was probably worth what you paid.

The replies were not only off topic and hostile, if they were off topic and hostile because they maintain the Ganzo is counterfeit, then their replies were also sloppy or made from ignorance. The Ganzo looks to have copied features of other knives. But unless it's represented as another brand, it isn't counterfeit.

 

[bld522]

Why members of this community would want to support counterfeiting I will never understand. Have at it. but if you don't want to hear about it then don't post about it :thumbup:

I'm not supporting counterfeiting. I'm not even discussing counterfeiting. I'm discussing knives in the General KNIFE Discussion forum. If folks can't do that, why are they posting in a forum dedicated to the discussion of knives?

The crazy thing is, most folks who refuse to discuss knives in a KNIFE discussion form can't discuss them because they have no personal experience to draw from. All they can spew is their agendas. Their rantings may be of interest to some, but they're meaningless to me. Why? Because I'm here to share information about KNIVES, that's why.

Now, what was the topic of this thread again?

 

[Etna]

That detent slipjoint mechanism is kinda neat. The knife clicks out of a strong detent when you open it and clicks into another when fully open. I wonder if it is cheaper to produce than a backspring system.

Personal opinion is that it's superior to the backspring. Not only does it stay tightly shut when closed, it holds the blade unexpectedly well in the open position as well. The typical backspring slipjoint can be closed with a simple press on the blade by a finger; with the ball bearing detent mechanism one needs to actually grasp the knife firmly and push it down to dislodge the bearings from their detents before the blade can be folded down. +1 for safety.

I think SRM should try to patent this mechanism; it's clearly their own design created to comply with China's local laws regarding knife carry. Won't know about cost though.

 

[John_0917]

And with that logic overseas ounterfeiting isn't even a thing. The excuses people come up with are amazing.

Counterfeiting is something very real, and completely different.

A Ganzo, while junk, is not a counterfeit Benchmade. The "Infidel" someone buys for $40 off one of the various shady "marketplaces" online and comes from a factory in China with close copies of literally everything down to the packaging bearing the Benchmade logos and trademarks is a counterfeit.

 

[clearkevin]

Generally a good discussion I was interested in the op as I do pick up a Ganzo now and then. I have had the best luck with them over the other common Chinese Brands, although the Enlan El08 is a good knife and I've recommended it many times to non-knife people. I think we need to define terms here as has been attempted above. A counterfeit is a product that makes a false claim to be some other product. To my knowledge no Ganzo is a counterfeit. You can't define counterfeit as any knife that borrows design ideas from another because that's not the definition of the term. Maybe some would like to discuss copyright infringement or something else but do it in a different thread.
Now what I really wanted to say is that I've found Ganzo steel to be about at you'd expect from any knife at the price point I've sharpened a few and it's no s30v but I wasn't expecting it to be. Maybe the OP got one that was burnt or had a poor heat treat but again from above some real science would need to be done to figure it out. I would like to hear from more of you about your experience with Chinese steel's as it is helpful from a customer stand point.

 

[craytab]

Counterfeiting is something very real, and completely different.

A Ganzo, while junk, is not a counterfeit Benchmade. The "Infidel" someone buys for $40 off one of the various shady "marketplaces" online and comes from a factory in China with close copies of literally everything down to the packaging bearing the Benchmade logos and trademarks is a counterfeit.

But wait. It's not against Chinese law. You said it above. You have contradicted yourself. If ganzo made that knife in the USA benchmade would sue the hell out of them for patent infringement. Counterfeit axis lock plain and simple.

 

[John_0917]

But wait. It's not against Chinese law. You said it above. You have contradicted yourself. If ganzo made that knife in the USA benchmade would sue the hell out of them for patent infringement. Counterfeit axis lock plain and simple.

No, I didn't...I made clear that there is a difference between copying something and meeting the definition of what a counterfeit good is.

I can't say what Chinese laws apply to intellectual property, I would guess not a lot, but it isn't relevant here anyway.

Copy/clone/imitation etc: something that is made to look/work/act etc like something else.

Counterfeit: something that claims to be something that it is not.

Ganzo is not an illegal/fradulent/counterfeit etc anything, it is a cheap Chinese piece of junk. End of story.

 

[Sunyata]

No, I didn't...I made clear that there is a difference between copying something and meeting the definition of what a counterfeit good is.

I can't say what Chinese laws apply to intellectual property, I would guess not a lot, but it isn't relevant here anyway.

Copy/clone/imitation etc: something that is made to look/work/act etc like something else.

Counterfeit: something that claims to be something that it is not.

Ganzo is not an illegal/fradulent/counterfeit etc anything, it is a cheap Chinese piece of junk. End of story.

It's damaging an American company by using their I without license and probably the same factory that turns out fake Benchmades you find on Ebay. They are also deceptive about what steel they're actually using and known to label shitty pot metal as better steels.

What I don't get is why American knife enthusiasts would support this.

 

[craytab]

What about illegally using a patented locking mechanism is so hard to understand? To argue otherwise is just silly. Have fun with it!