Ganzo G704 & Ganzo G712

[bld522]

Have 2 Ganzo auto knives, G17-b and G7211-gr. Neither is a rip-off of ANY design I can see; both claim to be 440c and from the way they sharpen and hold an edge I'm inclined to
believe it.
I've been written up by the mods for anti-China remarks and probably deserved it but I'm at a loss to feel the animosity for Ganzo. If they ripped the Axis design I'm sorry for that but
the steel they use is far better than the usual Chinese alphabet garbage.

This is not a winnable argument. There is no arguing the fact that Chinese manufacturers can and do make quality knives. There is also no arguing that stealing intellectual property is wrong. So while you can honestly say that some clones, counterfeits and knockoffs are very well-made, you cannot honestly say that theft is excusable.

The problem is that in their zeal to promote the ethical argument against theft, some folks are willing to lie about the quality of the products the thieves produce . . . products these folks have no personal experience with. They don't seem to be aware that by doing that, they weaken the ethical argument. After all, who wants to discuss the morality of theft with a liar? Still, two wrongs don't make a right.

My suggestion? Disregard the rantings of those who disparage the products and concentrate instead on whether you want to do business with manufacturers that engage in thievery.

Carry on . . .

 

[craytab]

You do me a disservice by insinuating that my statement about the axis lock patent having potentially expired is representative of an apologistic or supportive position, or in any way intended to "justify" anything.

I was merely stating something, and was careful to not assert that I was certain.

You down played the importance of the whole legality of the patent by referring to it as a "gripe" (gripe: a complaint, especially a trivial one). You down played it as something trivial. Correct me if that is not what you meant but it is what you said.

 

[Duane Sanders]

This is what this BF thread from 15 years ago has to say.

We don't even know how long BM has the right to use this lock they did not design. We do not know if anyone else also has permission to use the lock design.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/154342-Will-Benchmades-lock-on-the-Axis-lock-expire

 

[craytab]

This is what this BF thread from 15 years ago has to say.

We don't even know how long BM has the right to use this lock they did not design. We do not know if anyone else also has permission to use the lock design.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/154342-Will-Benchmades-lock-on-the-Axis-lock-expire

The link I provided above is more recent so it is more accurate. The axis lock is still patent protected. Notice how there is no patent number on those ganzos? That is because they are unlicensed copies of a patented design.

 

[Duane Sanders]

The link I provided above is more recent so it is more accurate. The axis lock is still patent protected. Notice how there is no patent number on those ganzos? That is because they are unlicensed copies of a patented design.

Same applies to Shirogorov knives with the axis lock. Yet they are sold right here on BF and openly accepted by the community. While being blatant copies? Are they a copy?

"As for Axis lock and people making it. We do not license it and do not grant permission for factories or custom knife makers to make the mechanism In Their products. They are actually doing it illegally and we have Pursued a few of them. It is also important to mention That some people and brands make something That look similar but is actually not infringing on our patent."

I sent Benchmade an email the last time this came up. That was their reply.

When someone actually copies the patented lock they go after them. The Shirogorov axis lock differs enough that it is not a version of the patented benchmade axis lock.

Ganzo calls theirs an axle lock. Since these things are for sale everywhere and have been for years now the axle lock must be different enough to not infringe on benchmade intellectual property. Otherwise, from what they said they would seek legal action. The axle lock has been out long enough that if it were an illegal copy, they would have shut it down by now.

 

[craytab]

Same applies to Shirogorov knives with the axis lock. Yet they are sold right here on BF and openly accepted by the community. While being blatant copies? Are they a copy?

You are inferring a lot. Then, you answer your own question below.

When someone actually copies the patented lock they go after them. The Shirogorov axis lock differs enough that it is not a version of the patented benchmade axis lock.

Ganzo calls theirs an axle lock. Since these things are for sale everywhere and have been for years now the axle lock must be different enough to not infringe on benchmade intellectual property. Otherwise, from what they said they would seek legal action. The axle lock has been out long enough that if it were an illegal copy, they would have shut it down by now.

It is clear you have either never see a Ganzo axis lock and. or a real Benchmade Axis lock. They are exactly the same. And who should Benchmade go after? Companies in China? A handful of small time resellers in the states? The large counterfeiting websites (not based in the US)? Ebay? The fact that these things are out their does not prove they are legitimate.

Trying to prove these are legit copies of the axis lock is futile.

Remember when Rev posted this above:

Here is some more awesomeness or you
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1080398-Counterfeits-The-Truth-of-the-matter
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1077540-The-Counterfeit-Rule

Lots of knives don't have bladeplay after years of sitting in their boxes on shelves.

 

[Duane Sanders]

You are inferring a lot. Then, you answer your own question below.



It is clear you have either never see a Ganzo axis lock and. or a real Benchmade Axis lock. They are exactly the same. And who should Benchmade go after? Companies in China? A handful of small time resellers in the states? The large counterfeiting websites (not based in the US)? Ebay? The fact that these things are out their does not prove they are legitimate.

Trying to prove these are legit copies of the axis lock is futile.

Remember when Rev posted this above:

If this is your actual issue, then you should petition to have the Shirogorov axis lock knives that sell here on the forums to be removed for being what you say, not benchmade says is illegal copies to be removed. Shirogorov does not list the patents on the blade either.

Benchmade made it quite clear to me. They only peruse actual copies of the patented lock and do not go after what they call "look a likes".

They don't go after Shirogorov because it is not a copy of their product they license from someone else exclusively. They don't go after the axle lock because it is also dissimilar.

It don't matter what you or anyone says, even what I say. Benchmade does not go after similar looking locks because they won't win in court. You can bet they buy the "copies" and examine them to the finest detail.

It is not up to anyone but benchmade to determine what is a copy.

I personally want to know why you go after Ganzo so harshly while Shorogorov gets a 100% accepted rate right here on BF if there is no tolerance of copies and counterfeits. Shirogorov claims they are licensed, benchmade says they do not license to anyone. A dishonest knife company fully accepted. Goes completely against the policy here.

I don't mean to argue, I just don't accept anything anyone tells me about anything. I always have and always will seek information from the source. The source tells me them axis looking locks are not the patented axis benchmade uses.

 

[craytab]

If this is your actual issue, then you should petition to have the Shirogorov axis lock knives that sell here on the forums to be removed for being what you say, not benchmade says is illegal copies to be removed. Shirogorov does not list the patents on the blade either.

Benchmade made it quite clear to me. They only peruse actual copies of the patented lock and do not go after what they call "look a likes".

They don't go after Shirogorov because it is not a copy of their product they license from someone else exclusively. They don't go after the axle lock because it is also dissimilar.

It don't matter what you or anyone says, even what I say. Benchmade does not go after similar looking locks because they won't win in court. You can bet they buy they "copies" and examine them to the finest detail.

It is not up to anyone but benchmade to determine what is a copy.

I personally want to know why you go after Ganzo so harshly while Shorogorov gets a 100% accepted rate right here on BF if there is no tolerance of copies and counterfeits. Shirogorov claims they are licensed, benchmade says they do not license to anyone. A dishonest knife company fully accepted. Goes completely against the policy here.

I don't mean to argue, I just don't accept anything anyone tells me about anything. I always have and always will seek information from the source. The source tells me them axis looking locks are not the patented axis benchmade uses.

Again, you are inferring way too much. Shirogorov does not have 100% acceptance. You made that up. I don't know why they are allowed to be sold here. Frankly, I've never clicked on a thread selling one. Perhaps we can get some clarification of this from a mod.

And yet again, you clearly don't know what you are talking about when you say the Ganzo rip off of the Axis lock is different enough that Benchmade can't go after them. They are exactly the same.

The reason Benchmade doesn't go after Ganzo is because they can't. They are made in China. Same with Shirogorovs being made in Russia. The best Benchmade could do would be to go after the resellers that are actually located in the US and that wouldn't really change much because the knives would still be made and they would still get into the US.

We could keep doing this but you know what? If you don't see the ripped off Ganzo axis lock as a problem, no amount of logic and reason I use to explain to you otherwise is going to help.

 

[Duane Sanders]

Again, you are inferring way too much. Shirogorov does not have 100% acceptance. You made that up. I don't know why they are allowed to be sold here. Frankly, I've never clicked on a thread selling one. Perhaps we can get some clarification of this from a mod.

And yet again, you clearly don't know what you are talking about when you say the Ganzo rip off of the Axis lock is different enough that Benchmade can't go after them. They are exactly the same.

The reason Benchmade doesn't go after Ganzo is because they can't. They are made in China. Same with Shirogorovs being made in Russia. The best Benchmade could do would be to go after the resellers that are actually located in the US and that wouldn't really change much because the knives would still be made and they would still get into the US.

We could keep doing this but you know what? If you don't see the ripped off Ganzo axis lock as a problem, no amount of logic and reason I use to explain to you otherwise is going to help.

I did that for me. I was trying to separate the wheat from the chaff. Benchmade told me exactly what I need to know. The Shiro axis lock and Ganzo axle lock are not copies of their patented axis lock benchmade uses.

If my finding out for myself is an observed move on my part to find facts for myself then I apologize to you. I'm not taking anyone's word for anything. I don't care if someone tells me they are top quality, I don't care if someone tells me they are illegal rip offs. I invested my time to get the information from benchmade myself. I am satisfied with the results.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...irogorov-T100NS-licensed-AXIS-lock-S90V-steel

That thread right there.

First off let me inform that this for sale thread did not violate any intellectual property law, any BF rule and it did not violate any patent. I am just saying that from what you have said, this would be an unethical sale that should have never been here. What I will say is Shirogorov makes the claim they license the axis lock design when benchmade told me they do not license the design to anyone. So if it is a copy of the patented design it is not a legal knife. My best guess is it is one of them look a likes they don't care about. What the real problem is, is the misleading claim it is a licensed axis lock. Leading people to believe it is genuine.

If them axis look a likes were copies of their patent, we wouldn't see them.

All I can ask of you is to contact benchmade yourself. It will clear up many issues you have if you do. I can not help you and you can not help me now that I have had a conversation with benchmade. I truly apologize for any conflict I have brought on. I just wanted the actual truth.

 

[craytab]

I did that for me. I was trying to separate the wheat from the chaff. Benchmade told me exactly what I need to know. The Shiro axis lock and Ganzo axle lock are not copies of their patented axis lock benchmade uses.

If my finding out for myself is an observed move on my part to find facts for myself then I apologize to you. I'm not taking anyone's word for anything. I don't care if someone tells me they are top quality, I don't care if someone tells me they are illegal rip offs. I invested my time to get the information from benchmade myself. I am satisfied with the results.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...irogorov-T100NS-licensed-AXIS-lock-S90V-steel

That thread right there.

First off let me inform that this for sale thread did not violate any intellectual property law, any BF rule and it did not violate any patent. I am just saying that from what you have said, this would be an unethical sale that should have never been here. What I will say is Shirogorov makes the claim they license the axis lock design when benchmade told me they do not license the design to anyone. So if it is a copy of the patented design it is not a legal knife. My best guess is it is one of them look a likes they don't care about. What the real problem is, is the misleading claim it is a licensed axis lock. Leading people to believe it is genuine.

If them axis look a likes were copies of their patent, we wouldn't see them.

All I can ask of you is to contact benchmade yourself. It will clear up many issues you have if you do. I can not help you and you can not help me now that I have had a conversation with benchmade. I truly apologize for any conflict I have brought on. I just wanted the actual truth.

You claim to be doing all this grand research but you can't even see that Ganzo is copying the axis lock. I don't need to contact benchmade. I have no issue that needs clearing up. You on the other hand are making claims on uninformed speculation.

So just because benchmade said they are not licensing the axis lock and they would go after anyone who stole the design, that means if a company is selling the axis lock it must be different enough to not violate the patent? Talk about flawed logic. With this reasoning increased ice cream sales cause the murder rate to rise, right? Did you think for one second that BM is not going after Ganzo because they can't?

 

[Hackenslash]

There are a couple of inaccuracies that keep on prevailing through the Axis lock patent discussions.

1. Benchmade does not own the Axis lock patents. They are not the patent holder. Those patents are held by McHenry and Williams. If those patents are infringed, it is not Benchmade that has been ripped off, it's McHenry and Williams. They are the ones who need to be consulted about infractions and enforcement.

2. Benchmade has licensed the right to use the Axis lock in their creations from McHenry and Williams. We do not know who else might be licensed to use it by the patent holder. Benchmade has always carefully claimed that they haven't licensed anyone to use the Axis lock because probably the terms of their license with McHenry and Williams doesn't allow them to...although that's only speculation, as we don't know the terms of the deal. Likewise, we can only speculate that nobody else has ever been licensed to use the Axis lock from the primary patent holder. You just can't say that Ganzo ripped off Benchmade as that claim is irrelevant.

All that being said, clones suck. Even if Ganzo HAD a license to use the Axis lock from McHenry and Williams, those Ganzo models in question would still suck by virtue of being a direct copy of a design they did not make. I used to think that clones were OK, just so long as they didn't try to pass themselves off as the real thing. No longer. I just can't accept them as part of my collection of knives. I care too much about the creative genius and hard work in our industry to disrespect it by trumpeting the value of clones and counterfeits. This is, however, a personal decision that everyone has to make with their knives.

Edit: Do I believe that Ganzo is using the Axis lock without a license? Absolutely. I also believe that SanRenMu used it without license in the past also. We don't need proof that Ganzo copies, all you need to do is look at their "designs". Guilt is proven right there.

 

[wesmanthetiger]

Just a question out of curiosity. I see no difference between the BM axis lock and the original CS AK-47 lock. I have dismantled the CS but not the BM. Is there a difference and if not how did CS get away with it?

 

[Duane Sanders]

You claim to be doing all this grand research but you can't even see that Ganzo is copying the axis lock. I don't need to contact benchmade. I have no issue that needs clearing up. You on the other hand are making claims on uninformed speculation.

So just because benchmade said they are not licensing the axis lock and they would go after anyone who stole the design, that means if a company is selling the axis lock it must be different enough to not violate the patent? Talk about flawed logic. With this reasoning increased ice cream sales cause the murder rate to rise, right? Did you think for one second that BM is not going after Ganzo because they can't?

Ganzo is selling an axle lock. Benchmade told me it is different enough from their axis lock to not consider legal actions. There is no question. You need to replace that question mark with a period. It is a statement at this point. There is no more question.

You seem to be more interested in the subject than I am. It literally takes a couple minutes to send them an email, then a little waiting. I am positive they will help with any question you have. I am also not wrong to believe what benchmade told me and honor their judgement.

Your not liking them is not a community ruling. Not everyone has to have the same opinion as you. I don't disagree with yours, I just do not feel I need to tell everyone how to feel about it. Benchmade says they are good to keep on selling them, so people can buy them if they want to. I do not understand why you are so pushy on telling everyone where they need to stand on the issue.

 

[craytab]

Ganzo is selling an axle lock. Benchmade told me it is different enough from their axis lock to not consider legal actions. There is no question. You need to replace that question mark with a period. It is a statement at this point. There is no more question.

You seem to be more interested in the subject than I am. It literally takes a couple minutes to send them an email, then a little waiting. I am positive they will help with any question you have. I am also not wrong to believe what benchmade told me and honor their judgement.

Your not liking them is not a community ruling. Not everyone has to have the same opinion as you. I don't disagree with yours, I just do not feel I need to tell everyone how to feel about it. Benchmade says they are good to keep on selling them, so people can buy them if they want to. I do not understand why you are so pushy on telling everyone where they need to stand on the issue.

You have just now changed your story. Your quote earlier from benchmade does not mention ganzo specifically but now you say they told you it was okay. This is starting to smell fishy.

 

[craytab]

If you go to Ganzo's website they call it an axis lock. Game, set, match.

 

[craytab]

Duane,

You should also review this thread, specifically the last post:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...is-Lock-Folding-knife?p=14041170#post14041170

 

[Duane Sanders]

You have just now changed your story. Your quote earlier from benchmade does not mention ganzo specifically but now you say they told you it was okay. This is starting to smell fishy.

I asked them about Ganzo and Shirogorov. Maybe you can email them to clarify their generalization in the response from brands to specific brand names. Maybe they do not feel like specifically naming a brand in a pin point answer. Seems reasonable on a business stand point to me.

Only thing fishy is you refuse to contact benchmade and your degrading comments towards the information benchmade provided me. I choose to respect their response. You do not. You are almost bad mouthing benchmade at this point for not agreeing with you. They own the exclusive licensing rights to use the axis lock, not you.

As to me to you. I 100% agree with YOU! I feel like the Shirogorov and Ganzo axle and axis locks are rip offs. I will never buy one. I will also never tell anyone they need to unconditionally agree with me. That is your real issue on this whole thing.

Once again, I am not arguing with you. I agree with you! Benchmade says the designs are ok to be made and sold. If someone wants to buy it, go right ahead. It won't hurt me any and obviously benchmade feels it will not hurt them either.

 

[Duane Sanders]

Duane,

You should also review this thread, specifically the last post:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...is-Lock-Folding-knife?p=14041170#post14041170

The last post agrees with you and me.

The title is misleading. Ganzo does not use the axis lock. They use their axle lock. Benchmade says it's different enough that it is not a copy of their axis lock.

For as many years this has gone on at this forum I am pretty surprised no one took the time to ask benchmade. That's why I did it. Doing so cleared up many questions even I had. They got straight to the point. If it's not a copy then a company or person is free to make a lock that looks like their axis lock. I'm fine with their ruling.

 

[Comeuppance]

Guys let's internet fight over intellectual property rights that we have no actual vested interest in defending nor will we have any impact on whatsoever by discussing it, however vitriolic and unnecessarily antagonistic it gets

Good job guys

 

[craytab]

I asked them about Ganzo and Shirogorov. Maybe you can email them to clarify their generalization in the response from brands to specific brand names. Maybe they do not feel like specifically naming a brand in a pin point answer. Seems reasonable on a business stand point to me.

Very murky. The story is changing by the post.