Ganzo steel

D

davek14

Joined
May 30, 2009
Messages
2,417
Does anyone have experience sharpening Ganzo "440C". There is speculation that it is actually 9cr14mov. The question is, would you sharpen it like a large, hard carbide steel? As in, would you use diamond abrasives to avoid carbide tear out and get a reasonably fine edge?

I can sharpen 8cr13mov on emery cloth on a hard surface and get a pretty good edge.
 
I'm WAY out of the loop on the technical aspects of sharpening. I've been hand sharpening knives for almost 40 years, for work and pleasure, and I have no idea what "carbide tear out" means :D.

I use DMT diamond hones on my Ganzo knives and I can easily get a hair-popping edge. All I have are the DMT's, so that's what I use.

If it works, I use it. For me, sharpening knives is just that simple. :)
 
I have used diamonds, India, hard Arkansas, and Ruby stones on Ganzo knives.
 
davek14 said:
Does anyone have experience sharpening Ganzo "440C". There is speculation that it is actually 9cr14mov. The question is, would you sharpen it like a large, hard carbide steel? As in, would you use diamond abrasives to avoid carbide tear out and get a reasonably fine edge?

I can sharpen 8cr13mov on emery cloth on a hard surface and get a pretty good edge.
Click to expand...

If it's only 440C or similar to it (with just chromium carbides, but not vanadium carbides), anything from 'India' stones (aluminum oxide), SiC or diamonds should handle it. Some better examples of 440C, like Buck's old blades, can be difficult with Arkansas stones, depending on the hardness of the steel and the grinding task to be done. Rebevelling could be painfully slow on Arkansas stones. I'd prefer SiC or diamond for ease of rebevelling 440C, and any of the others should do OK for refining & touch-up sharpening.


David
 
Last edited:
My sharpening skill is not great by any means. I carry a lot of the simpler steels, 1095, 12c27, (svord) L6, 8cr13mov. With those steels I can sharpen on emery cloth to an edge which I am sure is not perfect, then maintain a pretty good edge with a ceramic rod (I have a few).

Sharpening like this, I can only keep a "working edge" on D2. After questioning using ceramic on the D2 in a previous thread I've gotten a much better edge on it (on Dave's recommendations) with a coarse diamond (rod), followed by a worn out coarse ;) diamond plate, followed by stropping on wood with diamond compound. Emery cloth and other simple sharpening techniques seem to take this edge back to "working sharp" again at best.

1. Is 9cr14mov similar to 440C?
2. Does D2 have any vanadium carbides?
3. Would Ganzo steel *require* the harder mediums to keep a great edge.

Currently, I only use my D2 for "home carry". The lasting edge is awesome and I can kind of schedule sharpenings.

I'm a machinist and I have access to simple, beat up stones and emery cloth all day so a work knife is a simpler steel and is used purty hard.
 
davek14 said:
My sharpening skill is not great by any means. I carry a lot of the simpler steels, 1095, 12c27, (svord) L6, 8cr13mov. With those steels I can sharpen on emery cloth to an edge which I am sure is not perfect, then maintain a pretty good edge with a ceramic rod (I have a few).

Sharpening like this, I can only keep a "working edge" on D2. After questioning using ceramic on the D2 in a previous thread I've gotten a much better edge on it (on Dave's recommendations) with a coarse diamond (rod), followed by a worn out coarse ;) diamond plate, followed by stropping on wood with diamond compound. Emery cloth and other simple sharpening techniques seem to take this edge back to "working sharp" again at best.

1. Is 9cr14mov similar to 440C?
2. Does D2 have any vanadium carbides?
3. Would Ganzo steel *require* the harder mediums to keep a great edge.

Currently, I only use my D2 for "home carry". The lasting edge is awesome and I can kind of schedule sharpenings.

I'm a machinist and I have access to simple, beat up stones and emery cloth all day so a work knife is a simpler steel and is used purty hard.
Click to expand...

Based on it's composition, I'd not really put 440C or 9Cr14MoV into the same league as D2, in terms of difficulty of sharpening. Based on my own experience sharpening both (440C vs. D2), I'd arrive at that same conclusion. I'd bet 9Cr14MoV is likely more similar to something like AUS-8 (again, based on composition). Composition-wise, 440C might be more similar to 9Cr18MoV, with it's significantly higher chromium content. D2's carbon content is quite a bit higher than 440C's (by ~50% or so), and I think that makes a bigger difference with the carbides (chromium carbide = carbon + chromium).

D2 doesn't have enough vanadium content (< 1%) to be very significant as a carbide-former; the bulk of it's wear-resistance comes from the chromium carbides, which aren't nearly as hard as vanadium carbides. With the non-CPM version of D2, the chromium carbides can get very, very large in size, so that adds a degree of difficulty in sharpening that version of D2.

In sharpening 440C, such as with Buck's older knives, I've found it's difficult only on Arkansas stones, which are completely ineffective for heavier grinding of the steel. This conclusion was based on my own experience in trying to use Arkansas stones to thin & rebevel an old Buck 112 (2-dot) with Arkansas stones many years ago. I finally came around to retrying that job with some SiC wet/dry sandpaper, which turned my perception of 440C on it's head. SiC will eat it for breakfast; it seems remarkably simpler by comparison.

With D2, it gets quite a bit easier with SiC and/or diamond as well, though it sometimes might be kind of slow to work on some aluminum oxide stones. I'd not even consider trying Arkansas stones with D2.

If the Ganzo steel is just 440C or 9Cr14MoV, I wouldn't worry at all about sharpening it if I had access to a pair of stones: one in SiC for heavier jobs, and an AlOx stone for periodic upkeep and refining. Anything beyond that, like diamond, should also make it very easy.


David
 
Last edited:
davek14 said:
1. Is 9cr14mov similar to 440C?
2. Does D2 have any vanadium carbides?
Click to expand...

You might look for an app: "Knife Steel Composition Chart" by ZviSoft (on iOS or Android, assuming you have one)... that answers a ton of info about steels... what's in them, characteristics, allows you to make comparison charts, etc. Pretty handy to answer questions like yours.

d46242ad91f1a1da5f6254c963200785_zpsadmzxuyt.jpg
 
Last edited:
It all depends on the grind.

I quite like the Ganzo construction but I can't stand their grinds.

But if you give it a regrind to thin it behind the edge sharpening becomes a breeze.

4b597a69316aa07d3ef8c7103c3f1965.jpg
 
LX_Emergency said:
It all depends on the grind.
I quite like the Ganzo construction but I can't stand their grinds.
Click to expand...

I have that very same model, but in orange (mine is V2, with solid steel pins). That's a great regrind! Looks like a laser now. I am not that talented so I will leave my Ganzo blade as is.

However I am not shy with power tools... and another thing I will do to that very same knife is to remove as much metal as possible from the solid liners. I am planning to drill a few holes to get me started and then use a die grinder with a carbide bit to hog out most of the metal. Finishing with some files and sandpaper. The knife has a great size (not too big) but it is quite heavy. Also much heavier than my Spyderco Military, which has a much bigger blade!
 
Yeah, making the thick liners lose some weight is somewhere on the schedule for me too.

And yes, it'll cut like a demon now.
I think at some point I might try my hand at making new scales too. But for now this'll do.
 
Isn't the Axis lock patented by Benchmade? If so, these are some kind of Chinese ripoff of Benchmade then?

Brian.
 
bgentry said:
Isn't the Axis lock patented by Benchmade? If so, these are some kind of Chinese ripoff of Benchmade then?

Brian.
Click to expand...

Yes and No. Let me explain. Up to now Ganzo has not precisely duplicated any certain knife from any manufacturer... BUT they do pick some features from different knives from different brands and put them together.

The pictured knife is a Ganzo G717, can be had for about $15 or so. It sports a lock similar to the Axis lock (I seriously doubt the spring steel quality is going to be anywhere near what Benchmade uses) and the blade looks Sebenz-ish (although the grind is flat, not hollow)

So it is a ripoff of Benchmade knife? NO. Is it a ripoff of a Sebenza? NO. But it does copy features from both.
The build quality is decent, I don't have any complains with mine other than how heavy it is.

There is another model out there (G727) that looks just like a RAT II... with an Axis lock! It also has a full flat grind, which makes it probably a better slicer than the G717. In this case I must say that if you want a RAT II because of size, looks, features, etc... get the RAT II, because the price difference does not justify buying the Ganzo lookalike.
 
bgentry said:
Isn't the Axis lock patented by Benchmade? If so, these are some kind of Chinese ripoff of Benchmade then?

Brian.
Click to expand...

From what I understand the Axis Lock patent ran out earlier this year.

Offcours these have been produced long before that. But the issue is a complex one. The US holds a very high value to things like Patents and IP while the Chinese culture does not. The Idea of IP is a little foreign to the chinese. So while they often get slammed by americans for not sticking to patents/copyrights etc) the reality is that they simply see it as something not valuable to society.

Aside from that. I believe the Axis Lock patent is an American one which I'm not 100% sure how this works once you get outside of the country of the U.S.A.
 
LX_Emergency said:
From what I understand the Axis Lock patent ran out earlier this year.

Offcours these have been produced long before that. But the issue is a complex one. The US holds a very high value to things like Patents and IP while the Chinese culture does not. The Idea of IP is a little foreign to the chinese. So while they often get slammed by americans for not sticking to patents/copyrights etc) the reality is that they simply see it as something not valuable to society.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info. Regarding "not valuable to society": The question then becomes, which culture do you want to support? Do you agree with the Chinese that IP is irrelevant? Or do you think the American ideal of IP is worth preserving? Or do you not care about anything to do with manufacturing or companies and just want the cheapest goods possible, the consequences be damned?

I was going to type more, but this is already way off topic and therefor slightly abusive to the forum. I just get frustrated by all the talk of "copied" knockoff goods and very few people seeming to object to them. I strongly object.

Brian.
 
bgentry said:
Thanks for the info. Regarding "not valuable to society": The question then becomes, which culture do you want to support? Do you agree with the Chinese that IP is irrelevant? Or do you think the American ideal of IP is worth preserving? Or do you not care about anything to do with manufacturing or companies and just want the cheapest goods possible, the consequences be damned?

I was going to type more, but this is already way off topic and therefor slightly abusive to the forum. I just get frustrated by all the talk of "copied" knockoff goods and very few people seeming to object to them. I strongly object.

Brian.
Click to expand...
Yeah you're getting a little bit political here. In short....I think things are not a black and white as most people make them out to be. Which is why (as you could probably tell from my previous post) I try to not pass judgement on something that's different from my culture just because it's not from my culture.

There is a lot of merit to the idea of IP. But I also believe we as a western society have taken it to redicilous extremes. I do believe people (companies? Companies are not people....) deserve to profit on something they come up with. At the same time I don't believe they should be able to hang on to that for the insanely long times that we do in western society.

Then there's the problem with having a US patent on something but not applying for an international one. The Axis lock is a Us Patent (from what I can understand https://www.google.com/patents/US5755035 ) this means the Chinese really are free to use it...or anyone outside of the US for that matter. If you don't like that...tell Benchmade to register an International patent. http://www.uspto.gov/patents-gettin...n/protecting-intellectual-property-rights-ipr

It seems they did not value their patent enough to protect it from the Chinese...in fact...they've never seemed to have a problem with the Chinese using it....so why should anyone else?

In short. I'd not buy a fake BENCHMADE....something that claims to be a benchmade but isn't. But I have very little issues with a product that uses a (fairly simple) piece of technology that was invented by Benchmade.
 
Ganzo steel is pretty good,Ive done few regrinds on them ,and theyre breeze to sharpen now.Only con of these knives is theyre too heavy,otherwise excellent for price,I will drill out the liners to make them lighter and should be excellent working knives,maybe best for price.theyre never going to be benchmade or spyderco,but are bargain for those that really beat up their knives and in case of loss its easy to buy another one.Few passes on DMT or sharpmaker is all thats needed for their steel and it keeps edge well too!
 
There is another thread that got really stupid fast about among other things the axis lock. Let's just help the guy sharpen his knives and stay off the soap box.



Russ
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top