Gas forge questions

S

schick

Joined
Dec 22, 2009
Messages
7
My second post.
Hello everyone. I am anxious to get things rolling. I have looked around for days trying to educate myself about knife creation. I'm so new, I didn't realize until recently I should consider heat treating, annealing, normalizing, and tempering. So I am sure I'd like a forge. I want to build my own to save money, but I also just like making things myself.

I have seen numerous sites where people have built nice looking blower/gas forges, but I have also seen blademakers heat treat without gas blown or charcoal forges. In one instance a (supposed) master knife maker simply had the nozzles of two propane torches poistioned in a lined cylinder. It looked very simple, yet the video showed it to be very effective. What do you folks think?

In another video (good old YouTube) a fine older gent simply held the blank with very long tongs and hit it with what looked like a nice idustrial torch. He waved the heat evenly for a time while watching the color. I seemed like he knew what he was doing. Apparently this old fellow does this for a living. Is this a good method?

What should I be considering? Please note that wood and charcoal are out for me due to municipal restrictions. I guess too many idiots torched their out buildings.

Thanks to anyone that maight help me, and thanks to whomever is responsible for this great forum.
 
Spend several hours searching posts on this site for forge related threads. For sure check out every page and link on Ellis Knifeworks website. Study other websites, and then build a propane fired forge. I did it, and so can you. I have only marginal welding and cutting skills, but my forge/kiln works great, and did not cost a fortune.
The folks on this forum are very knowledgeable and also very willing to share. Without this forum, I would never have learned to make knives, let alone build a forge!

Spend the money and get a pyrometer and PID. And, one final comment- take your time and enjoy the ride.

Milt
 
I have a tutorial on my site and it's on Darren's site too.
Feel free to email if you have any ????.;)
 
You will hear all sorts of anecdotal stories, and see videos, of folks doing all sorts of odd-ball HT methods.
The only way that a HT will work well is if there is enough total heat available (BTUs) to evenly heat the blade, and allow for a proper soak time at the desired temperature. While some might be skilled enough to control a torch and do that ,it is unlikely that new makers could pull it off.
Build a forge with at least a 8X3" chamber, and you will be far ahead. The use of a blower, and a PID controller ( hooked to an SSR and a solenoid valve) will allow precise control of the temperature. This won't set you back more than going to Toronto and watching a show ( probably less).
Stacy
 
schick said:
My second post.
.. I am anxious to get things rolling.

In one instance a (supposed) master knife maker simply had the nozzles of two propane torches poistioned in a lined cylinder. It looked very simple, yet the video showed it to be very effective. What do you folks think?

Thanks to anyone that maight help me, and thanks to whomever is responsible for this great forum.
Click to expand...

From the clues in your post, I guessing that one of your Youtube videos was this one:

MS Wally Hayes - Home Workshop Knifemaking - an advertising snippet for a 2 DVD video he sells

[youtube]srF3xOmnMt0[/youtube]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srF3xOmnMt0

That video and the others he has done are reasonable source of information if you watch the whole video.

You're anxious to get things rolling...although I applaud your enthusiasm, may I suggest to slow the heck down?

You could try "stock removal" using files and abrasives on air hardening tool steel that you send out for professional heat treat. It's a simple and cheap way to start off.

Where in Canada are you ? it's 6,000 kilometres from coast to coast and depending where you are alot of answers on where to get supplies, or who may help you depend on that.

- set your user settings to allow email, so we can point you to some more info.
 
Last edited:
12345678910 said:
From the clues in your post, I guessing that one of your Youtube videos was this one:

MS Wally Hayes - Home Workshop Knifemaking - an advertising snippet for a 2 DVD video he sells

[youtube]srF3xOmnMt0[/youtube]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srF3xOmnMt0

That video and the others he has done are reasonable source of information if you watch the whole video.
Click to expand...

You've got to be kidding.
The blade is not evenly heated, he has a pan of oil at room temperature (Typically you want your oil at about 130f) in a plastic upholstered chair, (if the oil flares up at all the chair will catch fire) a magnet will tell you when you are close to the right temperature, but steel loses magnetism at 1413 f which is typically 50-100 degrees short of the temperature you need depending on which steel you use.

While I have some issues with the quenchant recipe in Wayne Goddard's "$50.00 knife shop book" a lot of people use that and Jim Hrisoulis' "Complete Knifemaker" book to get started. The two books together with asking a lot of questions will give a good foundation.

Just because someone is selling videos doesn't mean the technique in the videos is good.

-Page
 
sunshadow said:
You've got to be kidding.
The blade is not evenly heated, he has a pan of oil at room temperature (Typically you want your oil at about 130f) in a plastic upholstered chair, (if the oil flares up at all the chair will catch fire) a magnet will tell you when you are close to the right temperature, but steel loses magnetism at 1413 f which is typically 50-100 degrees short of the temperature you need depending on which steel you use.

While I have some issues with the quenchant recipe in Wayne Goddard's "$50.00 knife shop book" a lot of people use that and Jim Hrisoulis' "Complete Knifemaker" book to get started. The two books together with asking a lot of questions will give a good foundation.

Just because someone is selling videos doesn't mean the technique in the videos is good.

-Page
Click to expand...

Page

I agree absolutely,

Let me clarify some things.

I didn’t say good, I said a reasonable source of information, assuming that the original poster has not made anything at all to this point. That is also why I suggested a stock removal project with outsourced heat treating for the first time before jumping into a full forge build...

I believe that while a PID controlled forge is good, and a salt pot is better, that it may be beyond the resources or skills of a first time builder that is eager to jump in and do something.

I didn’t mention 50$ knife shop at all, although the basic belt grinder builds are interesting, I found that to me the goop quench is a bit of BS and that cable Damascus is not a beginner project at all and it just confuses things.

I also agree that “The Complete Bladesmith: Forging Your Way to Perfection” by Jim Hrisoulas is a great book, but some people are not interested or suited to learning by reading.

When I said the whole video, I meant the whole 2 DVD set rather than the short YouTube clip, because it shows the entire process, which isn’t too bad for a first timer. Wally starts with very small and simple projects. He especially shows the sanding and finishing parts fairly well -which in reality can be tedious as hell and are often glossed over.

In agreement with what Stacy mentioned you tube is full sketchy info where people that saw a few clips of what someone else posted and then go out and video their versions of it while knowing not a damn thing about what they are doing. However as a MS, I trust that Wally knows a heck of a lot more than I do, whether it comes across in an intro level video or not.

Yes he is using the one brick forge and it is not ideal, which is why I mentioned stock removal and professional heat treat. However, thousands of makers have started that way and it is within reach of many people and provides more even heating than just a torch. Small projects only need a small forge and a simple one burner venturi forge may suit the posters needs for a long time.

Yes he is using a magnet, but he does heat past the point of non-magnetic. It is at least an objective way of measuring temp other than completely subjective colour. I don’t think that he explains enough about the Curie point or watching for decalescence, but if the Original Poster wants to read about that he can.

I agree the oil should be heated and I see no reason to skip that.

The chair? I agree that part is totally shoddy.
He does address fire control with a lid and fire extinguisher in the original DVD, but not the You Tube clip.

Normally I say go read all these books, but I skipped that so:

Schick - Go read all theses books
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6737052v


Also being in Canada as the original poster is; I sympathize with the relative lack of knife culture and resources so that is why I asked for more info on his location and Email address as he may just be the neighbour down the road.

Sam
 
Yup, that was one of the videos.

The little forge with 2 nozzles looked like it would be okay for small blades.

I am from Saskatchewan Canada by the way.

As for the video in question, what can I say? I have been pouring over dozens of videos and looked at multiple blade forums, as well as read numerous tutorials. For a first timer, it is scary, as almost everyone has their own methods and equipment. Who does a newbie believe?

In the following video, What is Jim Moyer doing with the torch at around 1:27?

video

I am not giving up! I will get it all sorted out and create art one day. :)

I will have to gather some books online. (thanks for the link)
 
Just throwing in my 2 cents, but I recently acquired a blower I pulled out of an old gas furnace. This furnace had two fans, one to move air through the vents, and one to force air into the burners. The second is the one I got. So a good cheap source for a blower is an old gas furnace. As for fuel, I prefer to use wood and coal. With the blower, I can get a good heat in the inclosed space of my forge. Whatever you decide, make sure you use some sort of enclosed space, if for no other reason than its more efficient and will save you $$$ on whatever fuel source you use.
 
schick said:
Yup, that was one of the videos.

The little forge with 2 nozzles looked like it would be okay for small blades.

I am from Saskatchewan Canada by the way.

As for the video in question, what can I say? I have been pouring over dozens of videos and looked at multiple blade forums, as well as read numerous tutorials. For a first timer, it is scary, as almost everyone has their own methods and equipment. Who does a newbie believe?

In the following video, What is Jim Moyer doing with the torch at around 1:27?

video



I am not giving up! I will get it all sorted out and create art one day. :)

I will have to gather some books online. (thanks for the link)
Click to expand...

ruining his blade

That method of attempting to heat treat a blade will burn the tip, lead to spots of excessive grain growth and zoning of alloying elements going into solution.

Just because someone makes a video does not mean that what they are demonstrating is a good idea.

It is a good thing that you are asking questions. Have you read all of the "Newbies Good info Here" stickies? there is actually quite a lot of good relevant info there.

-Page
 
I sent you an email through your website contact link.

http://www.ckg.org/members/brian-lyttle/

If your heart is set on forging, then you will work with carbon steels rather than stainless.

Brian is the closest knifemaker I know that works in the style that you are interested in and does custom heat treat of carbon steel blades.


and Rob sells everything, without boarder hassles
http://www.knifemaker.ca/

The perfect starter steel for you
http://www.knifemaker.ca/product.php?productid=16416&cat=267&page=1


If you can arrange for others to HT your first blades until you know more, you will be far better off.
 
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