General Hardness of Blades

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danbot said:
Close on an exponentially sliding scale.
Okay.
I get it. An experienced sharpener can tell differences in hardness by feel against the stone, but no one is a human Rockwell hardness tester.
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I use the ancient Omani khanjar method which is accurate to 0.5 HRC, you flick the blade with your index finger of your right hand and listen to the ring, and frequency, then you lick the blade and taste the hardness and chemical composition. A guy tried to sell me a 7 ring royal khanjar at the local market, he told me the edge is very hard, over 60 HRC, I gave it a lick and told him not to BS me, it was clearly only 57 HRC, I could taste the softness.
 
Less Than Sharpest said:
Most people these days will buy a knife the least expensive way possible, and the majority of manufacturers are well aware of this. Besides, it would take a considerable amount of time to HRC all of the blades, even a sprint run, and if some are not up to spec they would have to be trashed. My original point here was that if you want a hard science, spend the money and order a custom knife. If you can live with a little variation buy a production knife, carry it, and don't worry about it.;)
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So when they find that the blades aren't up to spec they're doing quality assurance/quality control (QA/QC)? Which, I'd argue is a pretty important thing to do. QA/QC is time consuming, that's factored into the cost. Also, I want to point out, while it's likely most people will try to buy whatever product as least expensive as possible. However, that is likely because they don't value the labor that goes into (QA/QC included) making said product, regardless of origin of manufacture. Maybe I'm the odd one out, though aren't raw materials the least expensive part of actually making the knife? Isn't the HTing, machining, grinding, polishing, QA/QCing, ensuring all the little details are what actually make a knife expensive, regardless if it's custom or production.

If we're going off your original point, not all custom makers HRC test every individual blade or give a card with the blade's HRC to the tenth decimal point. Additionally, you have companies like Rockstead, which was previously mentioned, that is a production company (a high-end one, at that) that HRC tests every single blade and gives you the number. While Rocksteads are expensive, I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that the HRC testing is not a major factor to the end cost. Which means, production companies can HRC test every blade. The testing of the HRC for a sprint run would actually be easier to do since the volume would be relatively low compared to everything else that would be produced by a manufacturer.

That's why I made the statement that certain high-end production companies ought to HRC test their blades. They likely already have the resources and the price of their knives are already at a point that I don't think people who buy the knives would care if the price went up a little more. Batch testing is usually good enough for a production company.

Londinium Armoury said:
I use the ancient Omani khanjar method which is accurate to 0.5 HRC, you flick the blade with your index finger of your right hand and listen to the ring, and frequency, then you lick the blade and taste the hardness and chemical composition. A guy tried to sell me a 7 ring royal khanjar at the local market, he told me the edge is very hard, over 60 HRC, I gave it a lick and told him not to BS me, it was clearly only 57 HRC, I could taste the softness.
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How does one acquire this power? :D
 
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Less Than Sharpest said:
Spears- thanks for reminding me about Rockstead. Labor costs, and profit to the company remains the most expensive part of any knife.
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Lol, no problem. I keep wanting a Rockstead; however, the thickish BTE is less appealing to me. Definitely going on the bandwagon of thinner BTE, more acute DPS, thinner stock, etc.

I hope my response, while long winded, was critical and not confrontational. I do value the little things like HRC testing. It's all part of the formula that makes knives awesome for what they are.
 
Less Than Sharpest said:
You're conflating precision with whether something is a hard science or not. Metallurgy is a hard science with strong ties to both physics and chemistry. That doesn't change depending on whether you test individually or samples from large batches. Either system entails specific inputs and processes in order to obtain a predictable, objective result. A mass production heat treat operation isn't any less scientific than individually heat treating knives. In fact, the statistical sampling and testing used in mass production is also a hard science.


I'm not trying to a smartass here. You are not getting it. I wonder if you have ever visited a mass production heat treat operation with guys working for minimum wage worrying about the typical bs that a 20 year old minimum wage worker worries about. I have. I've listened to those guys. It's not rocket science to them. It's not hard science, either. They do their job. That's it. Maybe the person operating the furnace has been on the job for a few weeks. The customer comes and picks up their blades and then when they get back to their shop they might grab an assorted handful and Rockwell test them, or, they may not. Not matter what their brochure has printed on it. So a company says that a certain blade is a certain hardness. So what? Has anyone ever gotten their ass handled to them in court because a certain number of blades weren't at their specified hardness?
I don't think so, and frankly, I'm not interested in trying the system out.

I'm certain that you're correct in your own world. But in the world of knife manufacturing, bad things happen. I've seen bad things related to heat treating happen. It happens. And I've felt the somewhat rare but none the less real examples of soft steel. All I'm suggesting is that if you really care, and can afford it, buy a custom knife. If you can tell the difference, and a lot of people can believe it or not, then that maker is most likely going to listen to you. A manufacturer might listen, or they might just give you the run around for a few months and tell jokes about you. That part is not in the brochure, but I've heard the occasional jokes. The real world is somewhat different from what is written in books.
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That's a clown shoes operation. Sorry, but I call BS that Benchmade would let a bunch of armatures run their HT protacol with no oversight and no Consequences for significant deviation.
You pay for your blades to be heat treated to your specifications and if they aren't , well, we have a problem.
 
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Danbot, you just really want to argue. You must be the smartest person in your whole house. Damn, there are people telling you what's what and still you have just have to argue because obviously you know best. What is it about forums that makes people so courageous so they stand on their high horse and call BS every time they don't agree with some thing they read? Get over it already.
 
Less Than Sharpest said:
Danbot, you just really want to argue. You must be the smartest person in your whole house. Damn, there are people telling you what's what and still you have just have to argue because obviously you know best. What is it about forums that makes people so courageous so they stand on their high horse and call BS every time they don't agree with some thing they read? Get over it already.
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Maybe the problem is you? You’ve come on here, speaking as a knowledgeable source, and have written some really WTF things. I’m not a stupid person...well, not to the point I don’t come in out of the rain, but I’m unable to discern any point to your wall of texts.

After reading this entire thread I’m left with “buy a custom kinfe because HT”? That couldn’t possibly be your message, could it?

Beyond it being a medium to ambiguously name-drop, what’s your point about HT? In a concise statement, please.

Please make a clear point so we can then discuss how geometry and grind matter more than a couple of Rockwell units.
 
Less Than Sharpest said:
Danbot, you just really want to argue. You must be the smartest person in your whole house. Damn, there are people telling you what's what and still you have just have to argue because obviously you know best. What is it about forums that makes people so courageous so they stand on their high horse and call BS every time they don't agree with some thing they read? Get over it already.
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You must have been the smartest person to ever have worked for Benchmade.
Smarter than the ones who let their heat treaters play guessing games with the furnace and then let you sharpen soft steel all day.:rolleyes::)
 
Let's try to minimize the personal insults to avoid unpleasant consequences, gents. Thanks.
 
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